T207s

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

How were the players chosen? Why so few great players of the era? No Cobb, etc?

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Posted By: paulstratton

Tim N. and tbob both wrote nice articles which appeared in VCBC. I think maybe the set didn't go over so well and was discontinued before the Cobb, Matty, Wags, etc. had a chance to be issued. It's all speculation at this point though.

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Posted By: robert

I think it's possible that it was more expensive to get those players involved.

After the success of the tobacco cards from 1909-11, maybe the players started to realize how much cash they were making off of them.

Several of the Hof players that were involved were just young lads at the time like Johnson, Speaker and Hooper.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Maybe they were ahead of their time. They were trying to make a "Future Stars" set like they used to in the 1980's and 1990's. If you look back at some of those sets in they made in the 80's and 90's most of those players ended up being scrubs.

Obviously I am joking, but they could have been trying to make a set with a lot of "new" players that they hadn't produced in their earlier t206 and t205 sets.
-Rhett

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Posted By: jeffdrum

The players could have taken a look at a sample and said, "That set is so ugly, I don't want to be in it!"

Obviously, I am just kidding too.

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Posted By: Bob

I think they only picked players who had a brooding, moody, almost surrealistic look to them
Matty, Lajoie, Crawford and Jennings smiled too often.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Seriously though.....by 1912 the American Tobacco Company's (ATC) monopoly had been divested. The printing style
of the T207's doesn't in any way resemble the colorful style and quality of the T206's, T205's, and especially the T3's
that were produced by ATC's long time affiliate....the American Lithographic Co. (ALC). In 1911, the T3's were most
likely the last BB T-cards produced ALC. My theory is that some lesser known printing firm (possibly in PA) produced
the T207's that were mainly inserted in RECRUIT Little Cigars packs (and to a lesser degree, also in Broadleaf and Red
Cross packs....and rarely, the (red) Cycle brand..

Now consider this, the various Caramel Company's in that era (E91, E90, E92, etc.) were already depicting big stars
like Cobb, Mathewson, Plank, Wagner, and CYoung. So, this new printing outfit (by 1912) could not acquire the rights
to depict these guys. The one exception is Walter Johnson, who is depicted in the T201 thru T207 and T3 sets; but,
not in any of the Candy sets of that era (1908-1915).

Further proof that ALC had stopped producing BB T-cards is found in subsequent T-sets, such as the T216 cards (MINO,
KOTTON, and Virginia Extra) that were produced by the same printing firm that produced the Caramel cards (check-out
the Cobb, Mathewson, Plank, Wagner, and Cy Young in the T216 sets....their pix are identical to their Caramel cards).

I'm sure I'll get some debate on some, or all, aspects of this.....but, I firmly believe that the T207's were not produced
by ATC's American Lithographic Co. This could explain why the lack of big stars, and the T207's poor quality.

TED Z

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Following up from my above post......

The majority of T207's were out of the RECRUIT Factory #240, 1st Dist. PA.

Prior to the production of the T207's, the same RECRUIT factory inserted Flag (T59) cards in their packs in 1909-10.

Here is a T59 back indicating this.....





TED Z

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ted, thanks for the posts. I think your position makes sense.

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Posted By: Jason L

but then why the heck would they go and produce so few of a Cubbie. Someone tell me how on earth I am supposed to afford a Ward Miller card?!?!?!

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Maybe the same person(s) making the player selections was also responsible for the T204 Ramly cards. A lot of superstars of the day missing from that set also.....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Phil, interesting. T204 and T207 both have Johnson as their biggest star.

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Posted By: leon

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Posted By: paulstratton

Sounds plausible Ted, but we'll never know. I disagree with you regarding the quality aspect of 207's versus the others tobacco sets however.

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Posted By: PC

I agree that the T207's were produced by a company other than ALC. A comparison of the T207 backs to the T206s (and even to the T59 posted above) shows that the ALC style backs are completely different from the T207s.

I also think ALC printed the T59s, since the print style and quality of the back is so similar to the T206s (compare the T59 to the T206 Old Mill, Broadleaf and American Beauty w/frame backs -- they are very similar). So, I don't think the T59s were printed in PA (unless ALC had a shop there), even though that's the factory designation.

Also, if the T207s were printed by ALC, they could have used the same higher quality Broadleaf logo that appears on the T206s, and the same higher quality Recruit logo that appears on the T59s. The T207 Broadleaf and Recruit logos are different from the T206 and T59 logos, respectively, and not as nicely done.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

LEON

Thanks for sharing your T207 Buck Weaver with us......10 years ago I sold my complete T207 set for the current going
price of this card, alone.

PAUL S

I guess I like lot's of color in BB cards; but, more importantly I was just making the point that I do not think the T207's
were produced by American Litho. (like most of the T-cards). Possibly, T207's were produced in a NJ (or PA) printing firm.

I enjoyed putting this set together as it was quite a challenge and I like reading the bios on the backs of these cards.
My favorite T207 is Chet "Red" Hoff, who lived to the nice old age of 108.

Regards

TED Z

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Posted By: leon

I am not sure what the current going price of my T207 Weaver is but I know I paid a low five figures for it about 5-6 yrs ago. I had to sell a PSA 6 N172 Wright and an N690 Kbat Pittsburgh card to subsidize it. I am still happy I did it though.....For me, as a type collector, it's hard to beat uniquely known cards.

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Posted By: JimB

"Now consider this, the various Caramel Company's in that era (E91, E90, E92, etc.) were already depicting big stars
like Cobb, Mathewson, Plank, Wagner, and CYoung. So, this new printing outfit (by 1912) could not acquire the rights
to depict these guys. The one exception is Walter Johnson, who is depicted in the T201 thru T207 and T3 sets; but,
not in any of the Candy sets of that era (1908-1915)."

Very interesting observation Ted.
jimB

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Posted By: JimB

Leon,
That card is awesome!
JimB

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Posted By: paulstratton

I guess I was just stuck on your use of the word quality, rather than beauty. They are not the most colorful, nor the most beautiful tobacco cards, but I think a lot of work went into producing the cards themselves. There are so few examples existing today(compared to 206, 205), that I think they just didn't go over very well at the time and were discontinued.

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Posted By: robert

The T207 Red Cross back is so hard to find it makes Broadleaf 460 look like Piedmont.

Throw in the fact that the front features Weaver is just unbelievable and that card has no equal.

But why can't I find it in your auction?

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Posted By: Bob

The T207s are the most unique and appealing tobacco cards ever made! EXMT and NRMT examples have no equal.
I am in the 1% that actually believes that.

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Posted By: paulstratton

Since when did the Donlin become a 3k card? I won't argue that it's the toughest card in the set, but there are others that are close. Does this do anything for their value or is it just the Donlin?

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Posted By: Mike

Bob,

Count me in with you - there's nothing quite like a high grade T207!

Paul,

Apparently this week, and for an SGC 30, nonetheless. Though how often is one available? 3 or 4 in the last 2 years? On the value question, hopefully it is just the Donlin - as it is, simply finishing the Pirates seems farther away than ever.

Jason,

I'll see your Cubs and raise you the Pirates. Donlin, McCarthy, Hyatt, Kelly, Wilson - ouch. That said, I'd rather the Pirates than either Boston NL or Chi AL - they both seem harder on average.

--
Mike

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

I see all the T207 cubs on a daily basis, except Miller and Saier. Still puts a smile on my face.

Kmac

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Posted By: joe

I love the T207's.



Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: barry arnold

interesting thread.
Ted et al, I have on display at home two recruit packs---(1)the first district fact.
240 PA which you mention as being the place where the majority of 207 come from and (2)factory 606 Maryland.
I had thought for some time now that the 207s came from both of these factories and was not aware that the factory 240 PA was the main home.
What import does 606 Maryland have in the 207 world?
I note that Jon Canfield's very helpful tome lists both 240 PA and 606 MD
as recruit 207 'homes'.
What's your take?

best,
barry

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Posted By: paulstratton

Nice Works Joe, tough card.

Barry,

Are you asking for the ratio of PA 240's to MD 606's? From what I've seen they don't carry any extra value, though they are far less plentiful.


Where do the anonymous backs fit into your theory Ted? I don't think any of the other tobacco sets have anonymous backs, though some caramel sets do.

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Posted By: barry arnold

many thanks, Paul, for your comments.
i was just surprised to see that the 606 was not mentioned in Ted's discussion of 207 recruit factories.
should we give the 240 primacy for 207s and 606 secondary status, or is the 606 just not in the running?

best,
barry