Top 5 pitchers of all time?

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I was waiting for someone to figure out how to post the table that Brian created as I assumed that would decide who was best in comparative eras; however, obviously such a mechanism does not work perfectly as Carlos Zambrano is slotted ahead of Bob Gibson.

That being said, my very flawed opinion which is based mostly on greatness as opposed to longevity is as follows (in alphabaetical order):

Lefty Grove
Walter Johnson
Sandy Koufax
Christy Mathewson
Warren Spahn

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Posted By: paulstratton

Grove
Johnson
Smokey Joe Williams...Paige said he was the best.
Spahn
Seaver

Craig Swan...Joe?

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Jeff, I agree, ERA+ works less than perfectly...

John Franco and Bruce Sutter, both of whom I think were really good pitchers, are ahead of"

Alexander
Mathewson
Koufax
Waddell
Hubbell
Plank


Way down the list, tied with Dave Stieb and Mike Mussina, at 122, is Babe Ruth. I'd have thought Ruth would have been in the top ten after all I read about how he was the greatest ballplayer in that thread with which I stirred folks up, a few weeks ago. Good old Ed Reulbach had a 123 rating, higher than the Babe's ERA+.


I don't think ERA+ is the best way to sort out the top 5 pitchers of all time.

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Posted By: steve

Sidd Finch
Al Hrabosky
Ryne Duren
Mark Fydrich
Luis Tiant

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Posted By: Mark Lutz

A word must be said on behalf of a guy who not only won 373 games but also served in WWI at the peak of his career. If you want dominant seasons, look at 1915 when he was 31-10, with a 1.22 era, 12 shutouts, and his era+ was 225. In 1916 he was 33-12, with a 1.55 era, 16 shutouts, and the +era was 170.

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Posted By: Wil Jordan

Here are my top 5

Sandy Koufax
Bob Gibson
Walter Johnson
Warren Spahn
Babe Ruth

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

This is what makes this game so Great! Opinion's of a guy who pitch 100 years ago, as to someone I saw last year. Baseball is in my blood! I'm sure you guys & gals know what I mean!!!

These are My 5 Best.... Honestly, it's to hard to put them in an order? Really just my humble (Now Couch potatoe, can't play anymore Broken Back) opinion.

- Christy Mathewson(Carried his team for ever!)
- Sachel Paige(This Guy has more records that isn't recorded than are, I'm sure of it!)
- Walter Johnson(Can't hit what ya can't see!)
- Nolan Ryan(7 No~No's)
- Ed Walsh(Lowest Lifetime ERA 1.24, Very Impressive & He's a "Walsh" )

Cy Young has the most loses of any pitcher... I guess thats what turns me away from him. Sorry Cy....

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Jason L

Nice to see that he's getting some positive attention here, after I caused a brief feather-ruffling on the Greatest Pitcher thread last week by mentioning his name.
Seems as though some folks have been doing their homework!

He has to be in the conversation, it's just a matter of what style you're considering. I apologize for forgetting who mentioned his walk totals up above, but the degree to which he controls the ball is insane, -not to mention the longevity, the consistency, his competitive ability during an era where the hitters capabilities increased dramatically in relation to those of the pitchers (roids), his fielding, ...he HAS to be considered.

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Posted By: Brian

<<I was waiting for someone to figure out how to post the table that Brian created as I assumed that would decide who was best in comparative eras; however, obviously such a mechanism does not work perfectly as Carlos Zambrano is slotted ahead of Bob Gibson.>>

Jeff, no single stat works best. However, ERA+ does work MUCH better than just ERA. And my list of top 5 didn't follow the top 5 in ERA+, but I did use it to help frame my thinking.

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Posted By: Stephen Mitchell

Having seen only one of these great pitchers (Spahn) and only at end of his prime, this list will attempt to list the Greatest Pitchers of All-Time in order of greatness:

1. Grover Cleveland Alexander... 373 wins with some so-so clubs (esp. compared with Matty) and saddled with epilepsy to boot
2. Bob Feller... 266 wins for just 2 pennant winners (in 18 seasons) and lost nearly 4 full years to World War II where he was a legitimate hero
3. Warren Spahn... Another World War II hero who won 363 National League games
4. Walter Johnson... The Big Train won 417 for largely so-so teams, at best
5. Lefty Grove... Won an even 300 but 400 would have been likely had he moved to the majors earlier

6. Cy Young... Won an astounding 511 games but pitched so long ago that his early years cannot be considered modern baseball
7. Carl Hubbell... An earlier post on this topic convinced me King Carl and his 253 wins must be in the Top 10
8. Christy Mathewson... Like Alexander, Matty won 373 but with far superior clubs including outstanding pitchers to share the load... McGinnity, Marquard and a half dozen #2 pitchers on most clubs all made Mathewson's life infinitely easier than Ol Pete's.
9. Eddie Plank... Lefty won 326 in 17 seasons and ranked in his league's top ten in both wins and winning percentage 13 seasons each. Of course, like Matty he had lots of support... Waddell, Bender
10. Tom Seaver... The only near contemporary pitcher on the list, he won 311 with not a hint of cheating (steroids). Plus, his coining of the term Quality Start (5 innings, 3 or few earned runs) makes the first nine on this list all the better.

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Posted By: Ken Wirt

I'm listing 10, cause that's how many I would carry on my roster!

1. Walter Johnson
2. Sandy Koufax
3. Christy Matthewson
4. Satchel Paige
5. Cy Young
6. Bob Gibson
7. Grover Alexander
8. Lefty Grove
9. Bob Feller
10. Old Hoss Radbourne

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Posted By: Dan P.

Due to his accused steroid use, any list including Clemens can't be valid (or at least Clemens' selection is invalid). If he is eventually cleared, then he'd be allowed to be considered on this list. My list of the 5 greatest pitchers is (in no particular order):

Seaver
Koufax
Gibson
Ryan
Maddux

I started watching baseball in 1959--these are the guys I saw for most or all of their careers. If I had to pick top 5 from pre-WW II, then I go with (again in no particular order):

Feller
Young
Mathewson
Johnson
Alexander

Spahn and Ford from the 1945-59 era.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Brian, I agree. What good is comparing one pither's ERA from one era to a pitcher's in another era when the relative average in the league was a full two points different?

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Posted By: Brian

Jeff -- exactly.

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Posted By: Joe D.

- - I just threw that one in to see if anyone was paying attention.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ahh Craig Swan. Brings back very bittersweet memories. For some reason, I remembered him being better than his statistics indicate: Only 59 lifetime wins! The Mets were so bad that he seemed like a great pitcher in comparison I suppose.

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Posted By: Scot York

You guys are all over the best pitchers list (Paige, Johnson, Alexander, etc...) I nominate Hall of Famer Amos Rusie as an honorable mention. After all they did move the pitchers mound back to the current 60 feet do to his blazing fastball.

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Posted By: Mark

Good point about Rusie. The day that Mathewson died, McGraw eulogized him in the newspapers by saying that he had a curve like Nap Rucker's and a fastball like Rusie's.

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Posted By: Bob

Speaking of curveballs, is there anyone who doesn't agree that in the modern era the best curve belonged to Bert "Be home" Blyleven? What a damn shame he is not in the Hall with all those wins for miserable teams...

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Bob:

Although he flamed out very quickly, I remember seeing Baltimore Orioles' relief pitcher, Greg Olson win AL ROY in the late 80's. I think he had the best curveball I have ever seen, better than Blyleven, even.

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Posted By: steve

I have a VHS of the whole, entire 9 inning game footage of Nolan Ryan's 5th No-hitter in 1981 vs. Dodgers.

Your jaw is ON THE FLOOR when watching some of Ryan's curveballs!

Absolutely completely utterly AMAZING !!

The pitches drops off the table making a good Dodger lineup look like little league'ers just learning to hit.

A curveball cannot possibly be better than what Ryan displays during his 5th no-hitter !!!

steve

edited: When I watch it, I constantly "rewind" to see pitches over and over - cannot believe what I see !

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I hate that Blyleven has been denied entry into the Hall just because he was short a few wins of the presumed 300-win cutoff. Makes no sense. How would Don Sutton have done on Blyleven's teams?

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

I believe you have to wonder about Blyleven and the Hall of Fame. He really did not pitch on alot of horrible teams; in fact, more often than not his team finished .500 or better. He started with a playoff team in Minnesota that sported two HOFers and 2 others on the cusp (Kaat and Oliva). His one full year in Texas they won over 90 games, and he then went to Pittsburgh for three years and got to a World Series (88 and 83 wins the other two years). Even his forgetable four year stop in Cleveland found them over .500 in the strike year and him hurt almost all of '82 (so it wouldn't have mattered how good or bad the team was), re-joined the Twins in time for another World Series appearance, and then played in California on another 90 win team. In short, he was not a part of a bunch of hapless, perennial cellar dwellers.

Don't get me wrong, I like Bert and wish him well,his broadcasts are insightful and entertaining and he did have THE best curve ball. Still, I'd like to hear what his contemporaries think about him. You may remember, Tbob, how he was grousing and wanting out of Minnesota in '75 and flipped off the crowd at the Met. He lasted only one full year in Texas, on a good team where he pitched well, only three in Pitt, then 4 1/2 in Cleveland, same in Minny, and three with the Angels. Hired gun, or were there other reasons he traveled so much? Not that that should matter come HOF time, but he may have burned some bridges.

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Posted By: DaveL

Steve:

The finest curveball pitcher that I ever saw was Dwight Gooden. Talk about jaw dropping. His talent was awesome. His career could have been so much better.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Todd, good points. But if he had gotten the extra 13 wins he needed for 300 then what? A starter's chances for the HOF shouldn't be based on the quality of the relievers he played with who may have blown some of his wins.

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Posted By: Jim VB

I looked at this two different ways. Looking at whole careers and looking at a snapshot in time.


DOMINANT FOR AN ENTIRE CAREER
_____________________________

Cy Young
Walter Johnson
Christy Mathewson
Satchel Paige
Warren Spahn



DOMINANT FOR A BRIEFER TIME
____________________________

Sandy Koufax (1963-66)
Bob Gibson (1968 Season, 17 year career but only the middle 10 were really great.)
Ron Guidry (1978 Season, good after that, but never like that year)
Doc Gooden (1985 Season, destroyed a potential all time great with drugs)
Pedro Martinez (1997-2003, one of the best ever for 6 innings, but you better have a bullpen)


Either way, capping it at 5 or 10 leaves out a lot of great names.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Blyleven had good or better relievers most of the time. Did the pen blow 13 leads for him over the course of 20 years? No doubt, but that can be said for every starter. My point is this notion that Blyleven toiled for scrubby teams is not very accurate.

In Bert's first season in 1970, the Twins closer was Ron Perranoski--who won Fireman of the Year. He stayed another season and then the Twins got Wayne Granger, who also had won the award in 1970 (NL). In '73 they had Ken Sanders--he too had won the award two years prior, and in 1974-75, the Twins had Bill Soup Campbell, who would win Fireman of the Year the next two seasons. After a season in Texas, Bert pitched for a few years in front of Kent Tekulve, and when he rejoined the Twins, he got three years of Jeff Reardon. So other than a couple years with the Tribe (in one of which he won 19 games anyway, how much could the pen have cost him there?)and two with the mid 80's Twins, the closers were there for Bert. In sum, we are not looking at a guy who got robbed out of boatloads of wins because of lousy relievers; in fact, the pen may have saved more of those wins than those of other teams.

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Posted By: Todd C

1. Walter Johnson
2. Christy Mathewson
3. Lefty Grove
4. Grover Cleveland Alexander
5. Satchel Paige

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Posted By: dennis

whenever i see a debate on stats/Team run support et al... (such as the blyleven debate with todd and jeff) i go to bbref.com and hit the neutralized stats......try it.
by this account his neutralized record is 325-227 as opposed to his REAL record of 287-250.....clearly he was hurt by the teams he pitched for and the parks he pitched in. as opposed to sandy koufax who is 164-88 neutralized stats and 165-87 REAL STATS.

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

Dennis,
That is Amazing! I never New of that feature. Wow, I have a whole new outlook on Cy Young!!! I'm gonna play with that for a bit and see who are my new Top 5.

Dankz Den

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Dennis, where on the site is "neutralized stats?"

Interestingly, when you look at the section which lists the players whose stats are most similar to a player's, here are Blyleven's:

Don Sutton (914) *
Gaylord Perry (909) *
Fergie Jenkins (890) *
Tommy John (889)
Robin Roberts (876) *
Tom Seaver (864) *
Jim Kaat (854)
Early Wynn (844) *
Phil Niekro (844) *
Steve Carlton (840)

All but Kaat and John are in the HOF.

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Posted By: dennis

it is under the big black pitching/hitting on the far left in brown text.

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

Sorry Dennis if I beat you to answering Jeffs question!

Jeff,
Right Above where the Pitchng Stats are it Says 'Neutrelizing Stats" in Red! It's the last item you can click on above there stats!

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Denny Walsh

You Beat me, Rats.....

Life's Grand,
Denny Walsh

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

This website never ceases to amaze me. How about the feature that allows you to see what a pitcher did against a specific batter of their careers? Incredible stuff.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

but I'll stand by statement--the teams Bert played for were not woeful, period.

Jeff, the neutralized stats link is right after PITCHING>>glossary>>>Hide partial seasons, etc. It's highlighted in red

I have not studied the math to any degree, but see where it "neutralizes" Bert's 1973 season for the .500 Twins to have been 26-10, rather than 20-17. This alone made me laugh, having seen him pitch more than once that season live and several more times on the tube. To suggest that his teammates and park cost him 6 games in each direction on the ledger for that season is ridiculous, IMHO.

I want Bert in, and I think he deserves it. He did get extremely weak run support at times--I remember the 1-0 and 2-1 games, but that is not because his team was horsecrap as much as it was owing to him being a #1 who got outdueled by the other team's #1. His main beef is probably with his managers, at least while a Twin, for slotting him against the Vida Blues, Jim Palmers, etc. in their best years. But if anyone, including Bert, truly thinks he was 100 wins better than losses, as suggested by these "neutralized" stats, well, please allow me to respectfully disagee.

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Posted By: dennis

i love that feature! it is addicting.also try the Pythagorean won-lost percentage on the team feature. it is amazing by runs scored vs. runs allowed you can predict a teams record. last years diamond backs really were the exception!!