An idea for a good thread (s)

[Archive]

Posted By: Rich Klein

I could go into long boring details about why this fascinates me and how I had to lead a SABR discussion group on this. But this is the same general question I asked at a SABR deadball meeting.

1) Why was C 1910 such a big year for new card sets. Almost all T Sets are from that immediate era. Note the paucity of sets between 1890 and 1908. Has anyone done real research on the "explosion" of sets in 1909-11 time period

2) Same question for 1933-4. Again, with the Goudey sets leading the way -- why in the middle of the depression is there a sudden growth in products after a nearly 20 year hiatus.

OR

If you could collect any set; assuming $$ were no object; but the toughness of the set (or individual cards) stayed the same; what set would you collect

Regards
Rich

PS Im trying to be part of the solution

Edited to add the PS

[Archive]

Posted By: Jerry Rucker

I don't have an Intellegent response for you on the first 2 questions but if money was no object I would buy every N173 I could find.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric B

This is a simple summary. Others can expand.

The Golden Age of tobacco cards started around 1886, became popular in the next 2-3 years, then Buck Duke through acquisition and thuggery, managed to get all the main manufacturers (Duke, Allen & Ginter, Kinney, Kimball, Goodwin) to merge (ATC - American Tobacco Co) in early 1890. Monopoly, no competition, no need to produce the "extras".

The Silver Age started slowly around 1900 - 1902 when the international takeover didn't work so well and the British firms (Ogdens, Wills) all merged to prevent their takeover. Some cards produced. Cards revived in 1907 and others joined in. Antitrust legislation also in 1907 went slowly through the courts. Competition squeezed through causing cards to really gain momentum in 1909, peaked in 1910 and 1911. Focus in 1912 was the new company formations and lack of advertising budgets. Adding to the squeeze was the introduction of Camels in 1913 and a huge ad budget that didn't include cards. Then WW1 crushed all insert manufacturing.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ken W.

Eric

Great info!!!

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Rich,

Great question. I've always wondered the same thing about the explosion in about 1909 give or take a year. I also think it's a bit odd that it was almost simultaneous as to caramel and tobacco - two very different industries.

Yes, it could be argued that it started successfully with one and the other followed suit, but it is a pretty short and aggressive time frame for that. It would require that one industry include cards, have it be instantly and noticeably successful in increasing sales, "buzz", or both and then the other industry instantly deciding to do the same. That's a lot to have happen in a year or less.

I've often wondered if the whole thing wasn't actually started by a printer, not a tobacco or caramel company. A printer is common to both/all industries, and could have easily came up with the idea and made some samples. There could have been lots of samples of various sizes for various products, but I wouldn't be surprised if they made a size that targeted cigarettes and caramels, both with similar size packages. Then after they took off the other industries used the same size even though it wasn't necessary to use that size (Sporting Life, etc).

But still - I have always had a half-baked idea that a printer in the early 20th century revived the idea from the late 1880's and sold it to the tobacco and candy folks.

How did it start in the 1880's? Who knows. But everyone agrees that the cards were put in cigarette packs as stiffeners. Maybe there were always cardboard stiffeners in cigarettes, but they had always been just blank cardboard and someone got the bright idea to put a picture on them.

I don't know if the cards were still pack stiffeners in the 1910's, or if there were blank stiffeners in the packs at that time before the card revival. Has anyone found old packs with blank cardboard stiffeners?

I'm kind of sticking with the printer-generated idea, at least for now.


Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: T206Collector

....It's a confluence of influences, and the theories described above are very good. But don't underestimate the power of the 1908 season, which captured New York, Chicago, Detroit, Pittsburgh, and other cities like never before. Baseball reached an early apex in 1908 and advertisers took notice.


Visit http://www.t206collector.com for card galleries, articles and more!

[Archive]

Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Baseball was booming around 1908 to 1912... THAT is the reason. The popularity of baseball drove the tobacco and candy folks to print cards, not the court litigation. The antitrust litigation is what did away with the tobacco cards.

Look at the huge increase in minor league teams in 1908 and 1909. Attendance was up across the nation, in most large and small cities there was a baseball team.

The cards were printed because of public appetite and interest for them.




Hmmmm.... Horrors of War was printed when interest was high for that. Not many World War II cards being printed today... But we may well get inundated with Hannah Montana cards.

[Archive]

Posted By: Eric B

I don't think the popularity of baseball had anything to do with it. Baseball cards were only a small subset of the tobacco card market. Less than 10%, probably close to 5%. Flags were more common by far. Though throughout the years folks have kept their baseball cards because of increasing value while the flags, actresses, animals, etc. were getting tossed.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jimmy

Eric explains the situation well above, by the turn of the century cigarettes and other tobacco products were not restricted by the government as much. Before the 1880s tobacco sales were controlled and regulated by the government. This all changed when the American Tobacco Company made its mark on the industry and changed distribution methods forcing the government to level off for 20 or 30 years. Between 1908 and 1911 the American Tobacco Company was forced to break away part of the industry so there would be fair distribution throughout the country. The government realized they created a problem and forced the American Tobacco Company to distribute with different brand names and forcing the company to break apart. Which is why we have a great selection of backs for the T206 and T205 set, by 1912 the American Tobacco Company needed an outlet to try and make more money because they were loosing the control they had for so many years. The company was once again forced to make change and they formed a partnership with the British Tobacco Company. Many cards and sets were produced in England between in the 1920s and 1930s.

In the 1930s things changed for the United States making it possible for many different companies to form in large cities to expand employment for hard working families. The government once again had a say in the distribution of goods sold throughout the country and made changes for alcohol and tobacco products. This formed a trend to sell more candy in the 1930s adding Baseball cards so kids would buy more and more. The trend would last until the start of World War II as many of the factories were needed for the war effort and forced many of the companies out of business. In the 1950s the idea was supported once again and gum and baseball cards would form a partnership for years to come. There is much more detail to the history and distribution, but if not for these trends we may not have any baseball cards to collect or at least the selection we have today.


Jimmy