Can we re-visit the difficulity of caramels?

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Posted By: Dave F

Here is my thoughts....would love everyone's...even yours Peter C.

Easy to obtain-

E90, E91, E92, E93, E95, E96, E101

Are E97's, 98's, 94's becoming more available? Or does it just seem like it when a single collector floods the market with his hoard?

Although E99's, E100's, and E104's are pretty tough...I have been surprised at the prices they have been going for...(seemingly low to me)...why is that?? I picked up an E104-3 off Pete C on ebay last night...I expected it to go for more...actually how my snipe set a good bit higher...and it didn't go for what I thought. Are E104-3's easier or cheaper now than the E104-1 or 2's?

E106's I feel are hard to find...there was a small group a couple weeks ago on ebay..but I just don't personally see them that much...should they be considered harder to obtain then once thought?

E107's remain tough in my opinion.

Look forward to whoever has time to respond to this babbling.

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Posted By: Marc S.

Here are my candid thoughts:

E104-III's are so freaking rare that no one really collects them. Although type collectors (hello Leon!) will likely have an example in their set..the prospect of putting an entire set together is so daunting that it is laughable. There have been so many "discoveries" of additions to the formal checklist in the past 7 years -- that it is entirely unclear what a set might even feasibly comprise of. I know of at least one player that is not formally checklisted yet -- and his card has been found with both Nadja and Blank backs.

I, too, did think the Seymour card went well below expectations -- especially considering what an accurate job Pete usually does at pricing on his sale site. But -- common player, exceptionally obscure set, always condition sensitive (I think there are only three 5 / 5.5's ever graded and one SGC 80)...and perhaps some find it not the most attractive.

So basically it comes down to a usually beat-up, exceptionally rare set that generally lacks star power -- where most subjects from the set might have an extant population that can be counted on one hand. Cy Seymour is a relatively "high pop", in that a total of three have been graded.

~ms

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Posted By: boxingcardman

Plain and simple, you are seeing spikes in the offerings of certain cards because they've been drawing such strong prices. Happened with the E121s in PSA slabs a few months ago. Cards that were selling for $200 last year were pulling down $1500 all of a sudden and they came out of the woodworks.

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Posted By: JimB

I have never thought E98s were much tougher than E93s - maybe a little, but not much. E98s are really tough to find in ex or better for some reason. All caramels are tough in ex or better, but E98s are tougher than most in my opinion. I think E94s are as tough as people think, especially since TBob has most of them.
JimB

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Posted By: Bob

I agree totally with Jim B, e98s in ex or better are extremely difficult to find. SGC 40s and 50s of most players are very high. I have an SGC 50 of either Coombs or Vaughn (can't remember which) which was the highest graded of that player until Scott M's green monster set which set the standard for almost every card in the set. I bid on but ended up passing on a beautiful Kling recently in Seth's 19th Century auction which I deeply regret now. The just come along so infrequently.

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Posted By: leon

Had the Seymour last night had the S on his name it would have gone for a bit more. I was the underbidder but only bid that much due to it missing the S....still a nice card though and 2-4 hundred less than I have seen others go for...

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Dave -
I think as Jim mentions the difficulty of E94's in mid to high grade
so can be said of the E106's your asking about.
They are equally as tough in mid grade or higher as well. The recent lot you speak
of that just ended on Ebay was a real nice group and I was lucky enough
to grab a couple. Personally, I think the ones who were able to get some from that
lot at the prices they went for should be thankful.
I think they were great buy's.

Tony

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Posted By: peter chao

Dave F.,

I wasn't going to post on this thread, but your first line was dripping with sarcasm so I couldn't let it go.

I'm only a little familiar with the E90-1, and E90-2, other than that I seldom see caramel cards period at the shows and stores I frequent.

I'm sure the internet has helped caramel collectors. However, the supply of these cards are still limited, so I would not be surprised if in 5-10 years you will see far fewer of these cards online. Good luck guys.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Joe D.

how come the e103s aren't part of this discussion?

where do they rank?

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Posted By: Mark L

I'm not sure exactly what the relation is between rarity and price, for some sets seem so hard to put together that some buyers don't bother to chase them.

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Posted By: Dave F

Joe D. - I do see quite a few more E103's than the other sets that I would call more scarce. Maybe my mind is just screwy that way because of all the ones Brian McQueen has.

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Posted By: Richard

I think that this question needs to be answered in two different ways:

1) Difficulty to find any example in the set
2) Difficulty to find a particular player in the set

I believe that Pete's list is geared more towards #1 which is just to find any example. This would be more for a type collector. Here is my opinion on ranking of difficulty based on #1, from easiest to hardest (ignoring the common St. Louis players from E92 Nadja and the more common E105s from the find). Keep in mind that the bigger the set, the easier to find just an example which will skew the larger sets to the easy side:

Breaks put in where there are jumps in difficulty.

E90-1
E95
E92 Dockman
E93
E98

E96
E102
E106
E101

E94
E97
E107
E90-3
E90-2
E103

E92 Crofts Candy
E104
E92 Crofts Cocoa
E92 Nadja
E105
E97 B&W

And now the same list from the perspective if you were trying to find a particular player from each set, ignoring the tougher variations and the specific difficulties with certain rarities or colors:

E95
E92 Dockman
E90-1
E93
E98

E96
E102
E106
E101

E90-2
E94
E97
E103
E90-3

E92 Crofts Candy
E104
E92 Crofts Cocoa
E107
E92 Nadja
E105
E97 B&W

I did not break down the E94 and E98 colors or the E104 types (scripts and backs).

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Posted By: Wesley

A few comments regarding Richard's lists:

1. E97 black and white cards may be tough, but we have seen three or four large groups/ near sets auctioned in the past six months. They are certainly not the toughest.

2. E92 Nadja cards are placed right in the second category, but if one only needs to find an example, irrespective of player, then they are no difficult to find due to the disproportionate number of St Louis players out there. So I would move the Nadjas on the first list

3. Ditto on the E105 Mello Mints. Generally they are tough, but if a collector does not care about any player in particular, he shoudl be able to find an example pretty easily, since there are disproportionate numbers of Knight, Bescher, Lajoie, Young.

4. I also disagree with placement of E90-2 on both lists as I find those not so difficult.


Other than that, I agree with almost everything you wrote.

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Posted By: Richard

Wesley -

1) Perhaps you are right on the E97 B&Ws

2) I believe you are thinking of E92 Nadjas. Read my disclaimer about not including the St. Louis players as it skews the results.

3) Ditto on you not reading what I wrote.

4) E90-2 is a small set so finding an example is tougher than for a much larger set. However, in the second ranking when trying to find a particular player, it moves up quite a bit.

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Posted By: Wesley

I read what I thought was important.

Interestingly, you noted the distinction between E104 blank backs and scripts, but you ignored the three separate series. Are you treating the three series as if they were one big set? You separated the E90s so that is odd.

If the three E104 sets were divided, then the E104-3 should be near the top of both lists. The third series is so tough that there is no complete checklist and only recently previously uncatalogued subject matters were found. But then again, if you make no distinction between the three series, then that is moot.

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Posted By: Dave F

Leon-

As far as the Seymour not having an S, seems like most examples of this set I've seen are pretty much as equally rounded off on the corners. No?

hmm...i just need a e99, e100 and e107 to each pop up on ebay now where they all have a letter missing....

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Posted By: Richard

E104s are very underrated and you make a fantastic point. Could you please revise my lists with the E104s broken out by type, script and back?

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Posted By: quan

hey let's try to keep the e104s out of this ok, until at least past november...i don't wanna know about types or blank backs or overprinted fronts with stamped back etc.

also rman i love how wes don't have the time on his lawyer's salary to write down his list but have the time to shoot down your comprehensive one lol!

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Posted By: Bob

I don't agree about the black and white E97s not being scarce. Yes I agree a couple of lots came up with them recently and the winning bidders broke them up and sold them on ebay (primarily) but you still don't hear of more than a couple in existence of each card. I think the recent display of them for auction was an abberation and they are extremely tough, much tougher than the color E97s which are also hard to find.

I also think the olive E94s in high grade condition are extremely tough. If you have one or more, consider yourself very, very lucky. They are tougher than most other colors (violets and golds are awfully tough also) in low to mid grade but for some strange reason they are horribly tough in high grade.

The orange E94s are nearly impossible to find but that's another story for another day.

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Posted By: peter ullman

bob...I agree with you on the e97 b/w's...I've seen about 5 nicholls, phil...which is my only b/w!

pete ullman

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Posted By: Mark T

I agree with you about the E97 B/W....there was a set bought in a auction and then divided up on Ebay. Thats why we have seen a bunch lately.

Before those auction lots, there were not many seen for sale on Ebay. I actually bought the E97 B/W Bradley SGC 20 in a deal off Ebay and i believe i got it for a decent price.

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Posted By: leon

Yes and no.....yes rounded corners but no not usually missing a letter....Still a nice Seymour you got but if it had the S you would have had to pay at least another $150 or so....as that would have been my snipe....

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Posted By: robert a

I think caramel prices have cooled off a bit lately, but issues like E97, E98, and E94 are still going to be tough to find if you're a set collector.

Most of the examples that I see are just being recycled back into the hobby.

I recently sold close to 80 E98s in the period of a couple months. It took me years to accumulate those and I was as active as you can get.

Since I've sold the group, I've seen several already sold again on ebay or elsewhere.

Folks have made some good points already and I agree with the fact that people don't like to collect sets like E97 because it's really difficult to complete but not difficult to obtain a type.

E104-1 is completeable, but some of the type 3 cards might be unique. I think there might be a relatively large number of these cards in private collections that aren't going anywhere...similar to E99s, E100s, E107s, etc.

By the way, I don't think E101s are that easy, I just think that most people don't collect the set because the poses are shared.

Rob

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Posted By: Steve Parmentier

Several years ago I decided to go after the T206's rather than get into caramels.

Not a set collector, I primarily only look for major HOFers in EX 5 - a 6 doens't look that much better, and you run the risk of a semi-major flaw with 4's.

I collectively view caramels in the 1908-1914 era basically the same - I lump them all into the same "type." They are all the same approx. size and all have colored pictures of players. The differences between all the different caramels, in my opinion, are few.

Fortunately for all, both caramels and T206 have appreciated nicely in the last 5 years (maybe plateau now).

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Posted By: JimB

Joe,
I think of E103s in about the same toughness category as E94s, that is - not hard to find a type example, but a serious challenge to complete for a 30 card set.
JimB

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Hey guys........do not be so quick to dismiss the E90-1 cards. If we are talking complete sets, I do not think that too many will
disagree that the E90-1 is very tough. Yes, the first 100 cards are not so tough....but, the last series of 20 cards are extremely
difficult to find. And, if you are not a set collector, but just collect your favorites or type cards, you can go years without seeing
these really tough ones..

You don't see subjects such as these too often....either on Ebay or at Shows






And, here are the other 17 subjects in the E90-1 set that are very tough to find......

B. Brown (horiz)
Clarke (Pitt)
Donlin
Graham
Hall (horiz)
Joss (horiz)
Karger
Keeler (Giants-horiz)
Lobert
Mitchell (Cinc)
McLean
Shean
Siegle (horiz)
Stahl
Sweeney (Bost)
Walsh
CYoung (Clev)








TED Z

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Posted By: Tony Andrea

Ted -
I would definitely add these to the tough list of the E90-1's as well.
I agree with you. This set is so much tougher than people think.

Bescher
Gibson (back view)
Wagner (fielding)
Dougherty
Howell (wind up)
Keeler (red portrait)
Demmitt
Bliss
Richie
Donovan
Hartzell (batting)
Mcintyre
Gray
O'connor