How to get ripped off by SCP Auctions & Sotheby's

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

STEP ONE: Bid on and win an auction item.

STEP TWO: Pay for it.

It's that simple. At least it was for me. I posted on the vintage memorabilia board a week or two ago about an item I won from Sotheby's/SCP Auctions. Here's a link to that thread: http://www.network54.com/Forum/567138/thread/1187655256/last-1187720131/Should+it+stay+or+should+it+go+now-+1927+Cuban+Stars+panorama.

The item was lot #93 "1927 PANORAMIC PHOTOGRAPH OF EASTERN COLORED LEAGUE OPENING GAME WITH DIHIGO, OMS, MESA, POMPEZ AND OTHERS." in their last auction. I paid $9,816 ncluding BP and shipping.

Here is a link to a page I created that has tons of pictures of what I received. You can click on any of the images on the page to see higher resolution examples. These photos tell the story by themselves: http://cubanbaseballcards.com/SCP-SothebysBastards.html

The bottom line is that they have decided to rip me off by telling me "There's nothing we can do for you." I was told that yesterday by Dan Imler at SCP. I'd been talking to him for the last week or so and had thought I was close to having the whole thing taken care of. When he asked me what I wanted or what I had in mind as far as compensation I told him I was thinking somewhere around $3,000 or $4,000 (30 or 40 percent) seemed fair to me based on the obvious damage on the item I received that was not on the image in the catalog or website. I even said I'd be willing to take that in auction credit.

Here's a small example of the catalog photo vs. what I received:



The item I received had been framed and matted, even though this was never mentioned in the description. I still have no idea why. But I left it in the cheap, crappy frame that it was so carelessly framed in (no way was this framed by a professional) until yesterday when I was told "There's nothing we can do for you." I had honestly expected Imler to call me and say it was a done deal, check's in the mail. After he looked at the images I e-mailed him of the item I received compared to the one I bid on, he agreed that there was considerable damage on the one I had that was not visible in the catalog. He just said that he needed to discuss it with the powers that be and he'd get back to me. I assume the "powers that be" are the one(s) who masterminded the "nothing we can do for you" plan.

I should probably mention that I have no interest in pursuing any legal action here, nor did I ever. I don't even care what the legal case would be here. I think the justification that was used when they decided to screw me was that the auction was June 5th, the consignor has been paid, etc. Whether it's legal for them to screw me or not, it still isn't right. I was not looking for anything more than a fair resolution and truly thought that would happen, but that's just not the way things went. I'd been holding back and a little reluctant to post because a friend of mine who I like and respect is affiliated with the company, but had absolutely nothing to do with this deal. I'm pretty sure he's disappointed by how this has gone, too.

Anyway, once I took the photo out of the frame it became clear to be that this was more fraudulent that I originally thought. When I suggested the possibility that the defects had been photoshopped out of the catalog image, he assured me that there absolutely no possible way they had been photoshopped. After seeing the back of the photo, I can't see how that is possible because many of the creases and cracks appear to have been there for a while and several of the tears have even been repaired.

My point is, I was ripped off by Sotheby's/SCP Auctions and I figured other board members might like to know who they're dealing with when they bid in those auctions. What you see is absolutely not what you get. At least not for me.

-Ryan Christoff

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Thanks for letting us know how SCP and Sotheby's takes care of non-disclosure problems. Given your experience, I will not be bidding in their auctions.

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Posted By: Matt

First of all, thanks for posting this - it's great information for all of us to keep in mind. Secondly, I feel really bad for you - there's nothing worse then being taken advantage of. Thirdly I would suggest you do indeed pursue legal action - even if you don't care about the outcome (you'd probably get all of your money back), it would force them to be more careful next time, knowing that they might have to fight lawsuits off if they pull more of this crap in the future.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Sorry to hear it Ryan. I have never bid with Sotheby's before, but this will give me great pause to ever do any kind of business with them.

How come the auction catalog photo is Sepia toned?

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Posted By: leon

As I told you on the phone I think they handled this very poorly. I will be very careful IF I bid in their auctions. One thing I can say about most auction houses is that when they make a mistake they fix it very professionally. We all will make mistakes....it's how we handle them that matters....Thanks for posting this..

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Posted By: Jason L

in doing honest business in this industry/hobby?!

Ryan, very sorry to hear about this.

This doesn't look like the same picture at all. toning, creases, bends, tears, wrinkles...there's just way too much wrong with it to be a fair representation of the same product.

I will not bid in SCP Auctions, and I will encourage others to similarly avoid their events if asked. Honestly, I don't care how much money you have, you still don't have the time or inclination to deliberately chance spending it with as poor results as this.


Edited to add: Leon, I don't know that you could call this a "mistake" because the two pictures so vastly different. This might be correctly categorized as something else.

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Posted By: David Bowden

Also notice how the two different pictures are cropped.

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Posted By: Dave F

Maybe just my eyes but it looks like you can see a bunch of the creases in the top photo...especially the one at the top where the word eastern is down below...definately appears anyway some doctoring would have been done here.

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Posted By: Jim VB

I agree with Matt. You should take legal action. You have been sold an item that is not as advertised. The pictures in the catalog have clearly been retouched (perhaps they do not technically use Photoshop, but the used some photo editing software.)

Your decision to sue, or not, will impact their actions in the future. Those actions impact all of us.

I'm curious as to what their explanation for the differences is. They need to explain the damages, sepia tone, the framing and the repairs, among other things.

I don't understand companies that don't try to reasonably accommodate their customers.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think we all know from experience the power of this board. Hopefully in the end you will get some restitution.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Ryan,

One more thing, Sotheby's, being a publically traded company, does have other avenues of recourse. I'd begin a professional letter writing campaign to the Board of Directors.

http://www.sothebys.com/about/corporate/as_corpboard.html

Following that, I'd be talking to my local FBI agents. They seem to be interested in fraud in the collectibles industry.

Am I mistaken, or are you in Southern Florida?

(edited to add the link)

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Posted By: Ricky Y

Wow I recall seeing that piece in the catalogue and I agree it looks nothing like the item received. Given the magnitude of the discrepancy and the dollars involved this should be resolved to the satisfaction of the bidder. I think Ryan's counter proposals are more than fair. Best wishes in getting this resolved.

Ricky

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Posted By: Joseph

In the previous thread (which everyone should read) I'd wondered whether the sepia toning of the
catalog pictures was used to mask problems. Ryan, just to be sure, the photo you've received is NOT sepia toned, right? If it's not, then we might be dealing with a case of fraud rather than non-disclosure.

Sotheby's should be ashamed of themselves for allying with a company that allows such practices...but then again, I guess Sotheby's is beyond shame these days. Take a look at the upcoming SCP/Sotheby's auction....in addition to some fine lots, there's some dubious ad pieces in there. Outrageous!

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Posted By: Aaron M.

Did he offer to give you a full refund if you returned the item?

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

No refund of any kind was offered at any point.

The photo is NOT sepia.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Aaron M.

Then I think you gotta sue. $10k is enough on the line to at least retain an attorney and send a threatening letter to get them to negotiate.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

Ryan - very sorry to hear and SEE this. Clearly same item with image doctored. Jim - Ryan is in Colorado

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Posted By: Phil Garry

Ryan:

I agree with you 100%. How did they explain the vast differences between their scanned version of the piece as compared to the actual item that you won?

I also had a problem with another of SCP's recent auctions where they had a Negro League Team Photo as one of their lots and it was identical to a fake that I had recently encountered online elsewhere. When I called them and questioned the item's authenticity, they stated that they are unsure about its authenticity and a couple of other people have brought it to their attention. A couple of weeks later, and about one week before the conclusion of the auction, the lot was withdrawn. This was one of the first times that I encountered a major auction house not being aware of a counterfeit item like that.

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Posted By: Anonymous

.

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Posted By: Aaron M.

Joe, which ad pieces are fake? I have already bid on several.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Unfortunately they're not the only auction house with these unlawful policies.

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Posted By: Joseph

Wait a minute, maybe you shouldn't tell O'Keeffe about it: he may do a piece on your ordeal and the
panorama will end up selling for 15 grand in six months!!


Just kidding. You should try that avenue. A phone call from the Daily News to one of the individuals you dealt with might work wonders.

We are so with you Ryan.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Aaron, the Gehrig Ken Wel sign is dubious at best.

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Posted By: Seth B.

Ryan, good luck. The picture was clearly misrepresented, and the fake sepia tone just screams photoshop to me.
What I don't understand is this: someone who is willing to spend 10,000 on an auction is likely willing to purchase something again. This isn't like losing a $150 customer here; a simple reimbursement or a chance to reauction the item would have done such a good job here at smoothing things out. Hopefully this thread does something for you, keep us posted...

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Posted By: peter chao

Ryan,

Was the auction conducted from their main office in California? Another possibility is contact the local district attorney's office, they normally have a consumer fraud division or something similar to that.

Keep us informed on your progress.

Peter C.

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Posted By: JK

Unbelieveable. I had planned to bid on a couple items in this auction. I wont be doing so now. I also think its worth pursuing further.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Yikes, this defense lawyer is having a hard time coming up with a defense here given the photos. Cole wins this one hands down.

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Posted By: Paul Moss

Disgraceful, utterly disgraceful.

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Posted By: leon

I just looked at their current auction and I would have definitely bid on some items....I will be sitting this one out.....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Peter- the photo appeared in their last live auction in NYC.

Sotheby's has no case here. The one thing they do have is the power of being a billion dollar company. But they've done a lot of damage in the way they handled this. A few thousand dollars for them is in their petty cash box. They spend more on champagne and hors d'oeuvres to regale their fat cat clients.

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

Let's see.....


SCP just made a few hundred G's on the PSA 8 Wagner...

So.....

Seems to me that they ought to be wiring $10K of that to Ryan!!!



JMO

Steve

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Posted By: Richard

Sorry to hear of your problems dealing with SCP as well. I will not be bidding either.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Disgraceful. Ripping Ryan off for 10K is costing them how much now? I hope they make this right soon.

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Posted By: Rob

what gets me most in the differences in photos is #4, where the catalog photo shows a complete square corner, and in reality a chunk of the corner is actually MISSING.

i hope you are able to get your money back and these guys will pay even more in the long run due to bad rep.

Rob

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Posted By: Paul S

It's a shame. Especially considering your graciousness at offering to accept at less value something you may not even have otherwise bid on. The full amount is peanuts to them. Good luck!

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Posted By: John S

Ryan,

Very sorry to hear of this...as others have stated I will not be bidding in any future SCP auctions. These are the types of stories that really cast a poor image of our hobby.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Well, they saved a few thousand dollars and lost about twenty potential bidders. Not a good trade off as I see it.

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Posted By: David Davis

I just e-mailed Dan Imler at SCP/Sotheby's and wrote that when it is time to sell my collection I will not be considering them because of this issue. Not bidding in their auction and their having less items to sell are two ways to hurt them.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

That sucks, Ryan.

What sucks worse is that in a case like this, it's actually more difficult for a company to do the wrong thing than it is to do the right one.

-Al

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Posted By: leon

I do need to ask folks to put their names by their posts in this thread. The rules are always the same in these cases. Say what you want to but you need to be known...and an email address is required too...This protects everyone.......Thanks for the understanding.....

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Make that 21. (And I just perused the auction and there are some pretty neat items that I will not be bidding on.)

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know Steve. This is bad stuff...and Ryan didn't even ask for a refund, he just asked for an adjustment.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I presume that someone from SCP reads this forum and will do the right thing; after all, there is a lot of cash to be spent by our members. In the end, the bottom line is the bottom line and any remotely competent businessman will come to realize the financial significance of this forum.

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Someone should forward this to anyone who cares at SCP. I was going to bid strong on 5 items, and I have decided not to give SCP one cent until this issue is resolved.

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Posted By: Greg Sonk

I've been lurking here for a few years, but never before felt the need to post. I just wanted to thank Ryan for calling this to the community's attention. Speaking as someone who has undertaken the transition from modern to pre-war in the last few years, I can honestly say the open sharing of knowledge on this board has proven invaluable. I, too, will not be bidding in any of their upcoming auctions. Everything else aside, I sincerely hope they make this right by Ryan, as he has clearly been wronged.

I hope my grammar meets Mr. Sloate's standards.

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Posted By: David Smith

Do you think Sotheby's REALLY cares about we baseball card collectors? I mean, what little they lose as far as Commisions from us not bidding on their items is inconsequential to them.

So some people on this board "say" they are not going to bid. That doesn't mean it is true. That also doesn't speak for everyone on this board. Nor does it speak for collectors who have never heard of this board. I am not going to bid on anything for the simple fact that I do not have the money to do so.

But just because "we" don't bid, it isn't going to make a bit of difference to Sotheby's bottom line. Look, if their auction grosses $5 million and they get a 20% Buyers Fee, that is $1 million dollars. If the people on this board don't bid an Sothebys only grosses $4.5 million, then that is only $100,000 lost as far as Commissions go. Not really a big deal in the scheme of things.

What WOULD make a dent and a difference is if a baseball card or sports memorabilia collector ALSO collected art and REFUSED to bid on or consign something like a $30 million dollar painting. THAT would send a clear signal that messing over a sports memorabilia collector DOES have negative consequences.

David

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Posted By: Aaron M.

Barry, I often think it's harder for an auction house to make an adjustment than it is to offer a full refund. It's hard to quantify what the adjustment should be (bidder and auction house could have very different ideas) and sets up a precedent that most auction houses would like to avoid (otherwise they could be inundated with winning bidders requesting incremental adjustments based on varying degrees of disparity between the item's description and what was actually received).

But in cases such as this where an item is so grossly mischaracterized (to me just the mere fact that a B/W photo was shown sepia-toned is enough of a material difference to warrant a full refund) a full refund should be offered. That way the winning bidder is made whole, the auction house can still re-offer the item, and the auction house knows that the winning bidder wasn't just trying to squeeze a discount out of them.

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Posted By: jay behrens

There are around 1100-1200 regulars to this board, according to Leon. My guess is that about 10% of that is regular contributors. Now multiply by 10 the number people who have come forward saying they won't bid and you have pretty good idea of what impact this is having.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, I usually share your cynicism but not in this case. Perhaps baseball cards are not a big part of Sotheby's business but it is still part of their business. Bad news can still infect the larger part of their auction business because a loss in revenue one year is lost forever.

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Posted By: leon

the last few days of Unique IP addresses....since Monday was a holiday for most I feel it is a good indicator of how many folks look at the board. On regular work days folks might use 2 computers (home and work) so that would be 2 Uniques.....If I were a consignor I would be very unhappy....

Sun, Sep 2..... 1,020

Mon, Sep 3..... 1,103

Tue, Sep 4..... 1,278

Wed, Sep 5..... 1,332

Thu, Sep 6..... 1,115