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#51
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: JimCrandell
Barry, |
#52
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: PAS
How many cards has Kevin convincingly identified as altered for you, Jim, or anyone else? EDITED TO ADD While I find his posts interesting and like him personally, I am not ready yet to anoint him as some uber-grader keeping tabs on the grading services, and I just wonder why you seem willing to do so? |
#53
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
For what it's worth, although I don't know Barry personally, I can see he makes a great effort to run an honest auction. It's the auction houses that are always in question I would not buy from. |
#54
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Not to disparage anyone, but if I were in business and someone asked me if I would guarantee that my products would pass muster with a person who has no affiliation with any recognized business or regulatory entity in my industry, I would politely tell that person to pound sand. My next-door neighbor knows a lot about cars, but I'm pretty sure that Toyota isn't going to let me return my SUV if he doesn't like it. It doesn't mean my neighbor isn't extremely knowledgeable - perhaps even more knowledgeable than some of the people who work for Toyota - but unfortunately, he does not have the qualifications to make that judgement, regardless of how much he knows. |
#55
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: peter chao
Jim, |
#56
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- fair enough. |
#57
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: JimCrandell
Peter, |
#58
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: PAS
I thought PSA SGC and GAI were independent experts, Jim. |
#59
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Peter -- they're not independent experts with regard to reviewing cards that they encapsulate. |
#60
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Jim: |
#61
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: leon
What best graders has Kevin got stuff past? Mike Baker said he knows of no cards Kevin has got past GAI. And you say "graders" meaning plural....please elaborate....Has he got stuff by SGC? |
#62
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: JimCrandell
Leon, |
#63
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: peter chao
Jim, |
#64
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: JimCrandell
Peter, |
#65
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Rand Brotman
if a buyer wins a graded card, why does the auction house have to be responsible when the 3rd party is the one that certified it? Jim C has a ton of high grade psa cards, but they were graded along time ago, i would think there could be many over graded cards in those old holders... maybe Kevin should see those first. so if Jim has 100 psa 8's that are really 7's should he get the difference back from psa? |
#66
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: JimCrandell
Thats really intelligent Rand--discussion ended. |
#67
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Rand Brotman
No offense Jim, but old psa graded cards are dicey in todays world, i wonder how many of your psa 8 - 9 - 10's would really garner those grades if resubmitted today. anyhow, why should any auction house have to give a guarantee when its in a psa holder. psa should stand behind their cards, especially the overgraded & trimmed ones. |
#68
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: PS
In my opinion it is unreasonable to expect an auctioneer like Barry selling cards that have already been authenticated and graded by independent experts to make a sale of a consigned card contingent on further review by another grader. This extends to another grading service, and certainly to any individuals not generally accepted as experts in the field. When one buys a graded card one is buying the opinion of the company that slabbed it -- period. If an obvious, blatant mistake has been made such that an experienced auctioneer knows there is a problem, that is another matter. But short of that, a business selling consignments cannot realistically offer a right of return based on a further review by the buyer's choice of reviewer. |
#69
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: barrysloate
To take Peter's point a step further, even if I agreed to such a contingency my consignors very well may not, and I wouldn't blame them. And if I start losing my consignors, my business ceases to exist. If I sell a card that was graded by one of the big three I feel I have done my due diligence. People can argue with this point but there is only so much I can do. If every graded card is subject to further review I will get calls two months after consignors are paid asking for a refund. No auction house would allow such a thing to happen. I guess every transaction has some risk, however small. |
#70
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Chad
I'm getting way too much pleasure from Bruce's posts. It's gotten to where I'm disappointed if I come to the BOARD and he doesn't have a post up. |
#71
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: PS
Barry you are right, and the right of return doubtless would be abused by people who decided they paid too much, or couldn't flip the card as they expected, and so on. |
#72
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Anonymous
Barry, |
#73
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- You are absolutely correct. I have neither the expertise nor the eyesight to detect a subtle alteration. And that's why we all send tons of money to the big three grading companies. I, or my consignor, pays them a fee for the expertise that they have, and we don't, to detect the alterations. |
#74
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: rand
here we go again, instead of Jim C looking to hold his beloved PSA accountable, he wants to hold the dealer or auction house responsible for his purchase. WHY is it anybodys responsibility to guarantee the card once PSA has done their part? if Jim buys another vaunted psa 9 or 10 he should take it up with PSA if the card is misgraded. Barry does not have to be an expert, or anyone else for that matter, if the card was sent to the # 1 grading service in the world and they put their opinion in a plastic holder it should be a non issue "Right?" Jim wants to BLAME sellers instead of going to the source. What if Jim's psa 10's are mostly 9's in todays world or even worse....trimmed, ever so slightly...Who ya gonna call??? |
#75
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: JimCrandell
Rand, |
#76
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: rand
have nothing to hide. never have. what's a troll? You express your opinions, have i called you an abrasive name? |
#77
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Steve Murray
"An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who intentionally posts controversial or contrary messages in an online community such as an online discussion forum or USENET, with the intention of baiting users into an argumentative response." |
#78
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: rand
thanks, i did not know that. |
#79
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Paul Moss
One of the reasons we employ the services of grading companies is to establish a mutually acceptable plateau of what a card is, and its relative value commensurate to the assigned grade. We pay for this service which encompasses more than just entombing a card in plastic. As we deal with the major grading services, those who guarantee the authenticity and particular grade of a card with a check should the card not prove to be as they had originally ascertained, why on God's green earth should a dealer be expected a year later to refund the purchase price of a card because that particular card might not be as the grading company had originally established? Take it up with the grading service, not the dealer. |
#80
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Al C.risafulli
Bingo. |
#81
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Matt
Paul - not to get the thread off topic, but I thought the grading companies do a number of the things you just listed for my $10 grading fee. If that is not the case, can someone in the know, share with us the process one of these companies uses for grading a pre-war card? |
#82
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: leon
Rand (hi Rand) is not a troll, he has his email up, and has his full name up many times. I don't always agree with him but I respect his opinions as I do everyone elses. If he were remaining anonymous he would have already been banned..... |
#83
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: cmoking
I see absolutely nothing wrong with JimC or anyone else asking a dealer to give him return priviledges and telling them he's sending the card to someone else (in this case, Kevin) for approval. If the dealer is not interested in that, then he doesn't have to agree, and there's no sale. Or the buyer has to take the risk himself if he wants to. How often has a guy bought a card in a SGC/PSA holder, only to find that it didn't cross to the other company, and then re-sell it...I think it happens fairly often since people like consistency with their sets. |
#84
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: barrysloate
What if I sell a card in an SGC holder, the buyer gets it and shows it to Kevin, and Kevin feels it could be altered? |
#85
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Steve Murray
I agree with King. I presume that both sides of the transaction are free to negotiate terms mutually agreeable to them. If the terms are unacceptable on either side they don't have to do the deal, or in the case of an auction house, one just doesn't have to bid. |
#86
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: barrysloate
Steve- I couldn't agree with you more. |
#87
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Paul Moss
King |
#88
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Paul Moss
"Paul - not to get the thread off topic, but I thought the grading companies do a number of the things you just listed for my $10 grading fee. If that is not the case, can someone in the know, share with us the process one of these companies uses for grading a pre-war card?" |
#89
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Matt
Paul - I assume that was sarcasm; they must at a minimum measure the card, no? Also, which grading company do you know that works as you described? |
#90
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: JimCrandell
King--exactly--Steve, Barry--we are all saying the same thing. Hypothetically Barry, to meet my criteria--how about if I bid and won psa high end cards at your auction and we made the sale contingent upon sgc saying the cards were legit--would you agree to it then? Again not that they would grade it the same number--only that they would say it has not been tampered with? |
#91
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Charlie Barokas
Jim, |
#92
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: barrysloate
Jim- that's a reasonable request, but I would still have to run it by my consignor. He would have to sign off on it. If he said absolutely not, I would be forced to respectfully decline. |
#93
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Corey R. Shanus
Jim, |
#94
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: barrysloate
Corey- this would likely be done before the consignor was paid. I would expect a bidder to state this as a contingency of his bidding; therefore, the money would be held in escrow while the card was being reviewed. |
#95
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Paul Moss
"Paul - I assume that was sarcasm; they must at a minimum measure the card, no? Also, which grading company do you know that works as you described?" |
#96
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: Charlie Barokas
Barry, |
#97
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: leon
Communication is key, guys. I bought this blue Old Put from one of Barry's auctions about 3-4 years ago. It was raw and the sale was contingent upon it getting a numerical grade. Barry was informed beforehand and had no issue......it worked out perfectly. This stuff is easy if you communicate timely and effectively....regards |
#98
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: barrysloate
Thanks Charlie, and I hope the questions aren't too difficult! |
#99
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: JimCrandell
Guys, |
#100
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Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
Posted By: cmoking
Barry: "In that scenario am I allowed to say I agree with SGC and disagree with Kevin (just an example, nothing personal)?" |
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