Mastro and Psa

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Posted By: jay behrens

Who came up this Tier 1, etc none sense? It seems a lot people missed the memo on this one because there are a lot of people, including me, who have no clue what it means and what all the tiers are and what they involve.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

As you have tersely stated many times, "do a search on it".

CB

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Posted By: jay behrens

You must have missed my post that stated I no longer do that because I finally realized that the search function here is pathetic and inadequate.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

Actually, don't bother seaching for it, it won't fit your thesis therefore you will just disregard it.

CB

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Posted By: jay behrens

Charlie, I've been very civil towards you, why the change in your tune? You were the one calling for civility earlier.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Just typed "tier 1" into the search engine. What I got were a bunch of posts about tier 1 HOFers, your mention of tier 1 and someone else posting and wondering where tier 1 alterations came from.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

How is that not being civil? Is it not true that you give much weight to things that make your case and try to dismiss things that don't make your case?

Let me be clear, I don't like the way you have acted on the board in the past but we got passed that. I want to learn from you but just as you are inspired to give your unbridled opinion I must represent my side. And part of representing my side is pointing out part of your style of discrediting those that disagree with your brutally honest opinion.

Again, I mean no disrespect. I am just engaging in a spirted debate of both sides of this issue.

CB

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Let's go. You want reasoning. A person buying a car, regular or even collectible, expects it to have routine maintenance and cleaning. Such does not need to be disclosed because it is open and obvious, and impacts nothing upon value. That is not open to debate, there is no majority or minority view. Now let's look at a card. There are a great many who want full disclosure of what has been done to it, at least within the seller's knowledge. No we don't want to hear about nose drippings that have been flicked off, but we do want to know if there has been any "work" on the card, period. Mastro be damned, and any other names you care to drop be damned as well. Did you not comprehend the gist of this thread? The very company upon whose name you hang your hat is having their practices called into question. The matter is clearly open to debate, yet you try to trivialize it with your birdcrap analogy.

As for you, why don't you disclose what has been done, knowing that there are many who want to know? You can't in good faith say that it is such a common practice that it would be of no interest to people--that's a copout and only leads people to view your auctions with suspicion. My reference to the record is because you seem intent on calling things to people's attention--well, I am doing the same as to your views on these subjects. You smugly tell Jay to use the search function. I merely invite others to do the same when it comes to your activities.

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Posted By: leon

It took me 3 minutes to find this recently posted SGC thread. You think it's a pathetic search function but maybe it's the person doing it not knowing how....I am willing to teach you how to do a search if you need to be taught...It's really very easy...best regards

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

The tiered system was posted by SGC. It gave unique clarity into the different levels of alteration from the most innoccuous to the most detestable and everything in between.

And believe me I get it, your argument is that its all alteration is all bad and or unacceptable. This is where we respectfully disgree. I am representing the side that claims there are acceptable and unacceptable forms of restoration.

Let the circling around begin.

CB

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Todd,

Are you asserting that every person that owns a car that is selling said car maintains the car at the same level? And that no monotary value can be assigned to a poorly maintained car vs. an emaculately kept one? Your argument is specious.

"Work" please define? The converstaion I was having with Jay was with regard to dirt removal whether is is flicked off or cleaned off with distilled water.

I never hung my hat with Mastro. I simply stated that I was not the only person defending the position. With Mastro its a case by case basis, Doug Allen stated at the N54 dinner that he and they make mistake and they work to rectify them as best as they can. If they are found guilty of a crime, I will not defend them. But up until this point we have heard accusations. Some of the accusations are troublesome but let the process play out before making a final judgement.

I encourage people to search my name on this board, google or anywhere else. I have nothing to hide and I think if you ask around you might find the my repuation is an honest one.

CB

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Just keep posting on this subject, and your position and people's willingness to deal with you will become more and more defined. I don't need to ask around about your reputation--believe it or not I can formulate my own opinions and have been in this hobby long enough--some 40 years. My argument is not specious, although I'm pleased you at least spelled the word correctly. You can continue to equate wiping birdsh!!t off a car with cleaning a collectible card--that's your right. I'll let others decide if one of us is being specious.

So answer the question--why don't you disclose whatever you have done to a card in your auction descriptions? Because it's trivial? Nobody would want to know? Or maybe, just maybe, you think it might cost you potential bidders?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Leon, How are you supposed to find that post if you are told to do a search for "tier 1 alterations", yet that post never uses the word tier?

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Todd,

My name is not Pal. Second, you are condescending me man. Third, thank you for helping me define my stance, which I might add is a good one. There will be those that will never buy or sell a card from or with me and that is ok. But, it won't be because I am being dishonest.

SGC says removing dirt from cards is an acceptable form of resotoration so why would I take your personal luddite opinion over theirs? Tier 1 alterations are not disclosed for the same reason the bird **** is not disclosed. Which brings us back to the start.

You spend alot of time attacking and very little time responding to posts. I guess I will let that speak for itself.

Once again, I respect your opinion but your are making this personal. Can we just debate hobby issues without insulting hobby participants for having differing views.

CB

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Posted By: jay behrens

Charlie, please be sure to read everything I write. If you had, you would have read that I don't have a problem with restoration, cleaning or anything else that you want to do to a card as long as you disclose what you did. People do these things and and DON'T disclose them because they know that full disclosure will hurt the final price.

If there are practices that you feel are OK and acceptable in general as is claimed by you and Leon, then why won't you disclose them in your auctions? It shouldn't impact the price if they truly are acceptable.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Charlie, your argument that SGC says it's OK, so you don't need to disclose it is lame at best, especially when you keep falling back in your car analogy. If I tell someone I cleaned bird crap off my car, no one cares and it won't affect the final sale price of the car. You tell someone that you cleaned up a card, even if it was only with distilled water, and it WILL affect the final price. This is why your car analogy fails.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

For the same reason, I would not disclose the bird **** removed from the vintage car that I am selling. If removed correctly without changing the structure of the car it is as if the bird never **** on the car.

CB

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Posted By: leon

This is real easy.....If I remove a piece of dirt from a card and it can't be seen then I don't feel the need to disclose it. I already stated, a few posts up, that if anything can be detected it should be noted. My stance parallels SGC's stance word for word.....I had the same opinion before Dave wrote what he did.....You can disagree and that is fine....I don't worry about things I can't see....

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Posted By: jay behrens

This would be a good poll. That way people could chime in without having to publicly expose what side they support. I'd be interested to know what the silent majority thinks of your analogy.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

You cannot be serious, are you really going on the record stating that everybody maintains their car in the same fashion? Is it not pertinent to the resale value as to whether someone cleaned the car meticulous or the converse? You are the one with the flawed argument. Those that maintain their belonging the best will receive the most money at resale.


CB

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Posted By: Zach S.

You're talking cardboard and painted metal... it's not the same. Let's say that the car you're selling needs a new paint job and you get it done. People advertise older cars as having a new paint job because it may help get a few more dollars but if you added color to a card you wouldn't get the same result. Cars and vintage baseball cards are not the same and the analogy is ridiculous... much like this thread has become.

Zach S.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Zach,

Ridiculous or not, repainting is comseruate with re-coloring, which is clearly unacceptable. I respect your opinion but saying my argument makes no sense with out a valid reason, makes no sense?

CB

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Posted By: jay behrens

Zach, thanks for saying what I was about to say. And you prolly said it in fewer words.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Zach S.

Alright Charlie,

If a bird shat on my car I'd wipe it off. That doesn't mean that I want to buy a vintage baseball card that a bird shat on. Does that make it a little bit clearer?

E.T.A - I don't want to buy any used underwear either.

Zach S.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

Since when is "prolly" a word? Smiley Face.

CB

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Dear Mr. Barokas,

Please allow a couple of questions from a luddite, a term I'm sure you employed in its most complimentary form, as you wouldn't want to get personal. If a buyer specifically asks you in one of your auctions whether you have done anything to the card and if so what; i.e., if it is clear from the question that the potential buyer wants to know this information, do you believe you have an obligation to answer? You wouldn't want to be dishonest, right? You wouldn't consider his question immaterial and not deserving of full and truthful response, just because a grading company gives it a "tier 1" label, would you? You would tell him, hypotheticaly, that since you've owned the card, you;ve done x,y, or z to the card, wouldn't you?

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Zach,

Now we are getting somewhere, lets take your favorite card and your are in route to a show, suddenly a bird swoops down and ****s on it. I believe you have the right based upon the ethics of this hobby to wipe of the bird **** with distilled water and cloth. And if you do it correctly and the bird **** is gone, it never happened.

CB

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Posted By: Zach S.

Charlie,

First of all I wouldn't know where to begin getting bird poop off of a card. I'd have to start a thread here and ask the best way to get it off. I would want it off for my own benifit but if I ever decided to sell this poo card I would make it known to any potential buyer that something had been done to it. I'm sure the smell would probably tip them off though.

Zach S.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Todd,

Luddite is a term of endearment for your longevity in the hobby. The answer to the question is an emphatic Yes. When asked, I will always disclose everything I know about the history of a card.

CB

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Posted By: jay behrens

The reason your analogy and argument have become ridiculous is that you gone from the simple removal of bird crap from your car to the overall maintenance and care of the car to defend your analogy. You have moved beyond the simple removal of bird crap from the car in your analogy. This implies that you also need to bleach your cards to make then whiter, the same way you would want to make your white walls whiter (no need to disclose that is there?), your want to touch up any missing color on a card the same way you want to touch up any nicks in your paint job (no need to disclose that either, is there?). How far do you want to carry the maintenance analogy, or would you prefer to just stick to cleaning bird crap off the car?

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Zach,

Fair enough. But I think you are under no obligation to tell anyone that it had been pooed on in the past.

CB

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

I have read almost every excuse to allow a card to be sold as authentic. I can't belive that the same people who accused me of being a thief are the same people saying that cheating the public is ok. I have to tell you that I paid every person that I sold an item to that was not authentic. I belive that you should do the same. If you changed or altered a card and did not tell the public, then your as bad if not worse that I am. Paul you can say what ever you want about me.you took great pride in saying you turned in the guys from ca. It is about time you do the same for those that did exact
same thing. If this is how business is done in this hobbie I will stand by my statement that it will not be long before what you have in your hand is as good as dirt. I can also tell you that I have done more to protect this hobby in last six years than all of you put together. I stand by that statement and if you want to argue ask Leon.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

First of all, please do not put words in my mouth, bleaching baseball cards is definately unacceptable all the time. An analogy is just that, not every nuancial simiarlity has to match up. This is not my analogy, I heard it from someone I have a lot of repect for in the hobby and it mades sense to me. Obvioulsy if you carry out any analogy you will find inconsistences. Again, it is a tiered system, bleach...bad...distilled water acceptable.

CB

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Posted By: jay behrens

"Prolly" is a lazy way of spelling "probably" back in the 80s when when bandwidth was at a serious premium and you typed all your USENET messages in some form of shorthand. I try not to use it anymore, but it slips by once in awhile.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Shelly,

Wow! You are a convicted fellon. Explain to me how anybody who erases pencil or removes dirt from a baseball card is worse than you?

CB

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

You got a beautiful baby on the way. You might want to tighten up "prolly" for his/her benefit.

Congrats again, I have three and they supercede all this ****.

CB

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Posted By: Zach S.

Well, it's time for me to get to bed. I hate knowing that tomorrow I'll have to read all the posts that are made while I'm away... but, I'll HAVE to do it.

Good night... and I hope no birds poop on your cards

Zach S.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

Dear Mr. Barokas,

Thank you for your prompt response. I may take you up on your offer and question your cards at auction--perhaps others will as well. And unlike what you have just accused Jay of doing, I will try not to put your words in your mouth, although frankly, I believe that sometimes your words as posted in threads have disappeared, into whose mouth, I don't know

Good evening.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Charlie, not putting words in your mouth, just trying thinking out loud trying to figure out how overall maintenance of car is comparable to cleaning bird crap off your card. On the surface, the car/bird crap analogy seems to make sense, but when you think it through, it doesn't hold up. The main reason being that people prefer that you wash and clean your car. People prefer that their baseball cards NOT be washed, cleaned or altered.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"As the Cardboard Stomach Turns"

Brought to you by the makers of Mr Clean.......

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Posted By: jay behrens

Come on Zach, you can't go to bed yet. Bonds is still in the game. The guy is killing my sleep. I've been lucky to get 4 hours of sleep a night during the chase for the 755 and 756.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Charlie, you may not want to go down the convicted felon route. Others on the board resemble that remark.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Jay,

Ok. I give up. I tried to represent the other side of your assertion to the best of my ability. Please come to the next national as we can can have a fun conversation over some beers that Leon might pay for. Smiley face.

CB

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Posted By: jay behrens

If it's Chicago I say we make Leon buy us a case of PBR.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

BEAUTIFULLY!

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Posted By: JK

Didnt Scott state that he was told by Mastro that the card could be cleaned with a q-tip and bleach? Why are we assuming it was merely cleaned with distilled water? As I have stated many times (I think) I generally would have no problem if I found out that a card I owned had a pencil mark erased or was cleaned with water. However, I think I'd be a tad more irritated to learn it was cleaned with bleach.

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Joe,

Thank God for the good folks at pfizer!

Wimp

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Posted By: David Smith

Why are people surprised that (alleged) unsavory activity is being done at an auction house?? Christies and Sothebys got into trouble for collusion, among other things, a few years back. Reputations were dmaged and people were fined and jailed for their actions. Why is Mastro (for example) no different??

The executives of Enron and Adelphia were rich yet human nature took over and they wanted more and did illegal things to attain "more". Why couldn't this happen at Mastro??

Ten years ago, when eBay first started and sports auction companies were coming into existence, an old-time collector (my Mentor) advised me to be careful and watch out for auctions. His advice was to be careful when really rare or high grade items started popping up. Because these were the items that would sell for the most yet also were the ones that were most likely to be reproduced or tampered with.

An example he gave was the following. He knew that one of the things I wanted to add to my collection was an L1 baseball leather. He said for enough money, he knew a person who could MAKE me one. He said he knew a leathersmith who had been in business a long time and that all I needed to do was give him a color picture of the L1 I wanted and it's dimensions. The leathersmith could make it look like new or age and damage it to look old. Whatever I wanted.

Of course, he advised me that if I ever did this, I would have to disclose
that the leather was a reproduction (I would). The problem, though, is the people who owned this fake piece after me. Would THEY disclose the leather was not as old as it was supposed to be?? I never went farther with this idea because 1) I didn't have the money and 2) I worried about what would happen afterwards if I ever sold a fake piece. However, I did remember his advice to be careful.

The problem, as I see it, is how high at Mastro (or any auction company) does the problem go?? Is it a rogue lower level employee doing these things without their superior's knowledge or is the problem systemic?? If a lower level employee is cleaning/repairing a few cards for a friend or customer and only he/she knows about it, then the whole company shouldn't be tarred and feathered. But, if altering cards is a known practice from top to bottom (or even just at the top) and these alterations are not disclosed at the time of sale, then there is a MAJOR problem because WHO is benefiting the most?? The Owners and high level employees, that is who.


The people I worry about most in this (or any) hobby are the ones who know the most and who have a lot of money. These people know what an item is supposed to look like and have the money to reproduce it, if they wanted. An example might be the Pirate Cigarette cards which were just sold.

When these cards first came to this board's attention, how many were curious about them?? I know I was. Now, how many thought there was something fishy going on?? If I remember correctly, there were a few. I mean, these cards rarely show up individually but here was an almost complete set with a few uncatalogued cards to boot. The strange thing was there were no doubles (at least not known at this time).

If these were run of the mill cards that sold for $800 or even $8,000 dollars, then most people wouldn't take notice. But ultra-rare cards, in quantity, coming out of nowhere and selling for $8000,000 dollars is something else.

If I were wealthy, unscrupulous and KNEW what Pirate Cigarette baseball cards were supposed to look and feel like, what is to keep me from going overseas and having someone make them?? I mean, going to China and paying someone there $100,000 to make these cards wouldn't be out of the question. A person there wouldn't know or care about baseball cards and they are so far away that if a stink was ever raised, they are out of the loop and even if they DID hear about a controversy, why would they come forward?? They were paid a lot of money, so why get involved?? If I were the rich person who had them made why would I care or say anything to raise eyebrows?? If I were unethical enough to have them created in the first place and then pocketed a $700,000 profit, I would keep my mouth shut and move on to other things.

As an aside, this was just an example. I have NO knowledge of these cards and are just using these as an example of what COULD happen, so DO NOT SUE ME BECAUSE I KNOW NOTHING, AM IMPLYING NOTHING and don't have any money anyway.

As far as automobiles (and collectibles ) go, I use as a guide the old saying, "a car is only original once". For the most part, an original, unrestored car is going to sell for more than a restored car, if both are in the same condition. If you don't believe me, just watch the Barrett-Jackson auctions in January on the SPEED Channel. The cars that sell for the most are rare cars that are original or restored back to original. Those cars are fully documented and, if restored, have full documentation of that, too. Altered or undocumented cars sell for WAY less than their documented brethren.

Having said all of that, it does not mean that you just let an original car sit out in the open and let it get rusty and allow birds to crap all over it. You keep it stored in a climate controlled building and drive it every once in a while to let the fluids circulate.

The same goes for cards. A card is only original once and those cards will sell for more than a restored card. And just as with cars, cards also have to be taken care of and stored properly.

With collectibles, any alteration or restoration MUST be disclosed when selling. Otherwise, the buyer will think they are getting an original, unrestored example. If an altration has occured and is not noted at the time of sale, then I consider that fraud. Also, just because an alteration is not detectable now doesn't mean it wont be in the future.

That is my two cents about this issue,

David

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

That Charlie might have been squeezing the Liquid Truth?

Say it isn't so Charlie.

It's time for Charlie to come clean.

Was it Water, or Bleach?

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Gee Charlie you are correct I am a convicted felon. I have said that over and over again. I am also a father and I have been married for 36 years. I also have been in the Steel business for over forty years. I am what I am. The only difference between us is that you think what you do is ok. I think that if you cheat someone for selling something bad (autographs) without telling them is the same as changing a card to get a higher price without telling them. If you have problem with that lets go to the FBI and you tell them that your selling something that you say is fact but you know its not. Im tired of you guys trying to make what I am the reason that its ok for you. If you cheat and you dont get caught your not a felon. Just remember it only took one person to change my life. If any of you belive that changeing a card in anyway is ok then you are what is wrong with this hobby.