Mastro and Psa

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Posted By: David Davis

Brucie,
I'm pretty sure that Keith Olbermann, and several other people who read this board could not only buy and sell you, but make your collection look like a bunch of beaters. For someone who is a supposed expert in communications, your failing ability to do so with the general public is appalling. Your inability to come to the simplest of conclusions with few available facts is even more so.

What is your purpose of occasionally chiming in on this board, other that to be obstreporous and condescending? Where do you even find the time to do so with the bank mergers, and other non-value added services you provide that must keep you busy?

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Posted By: jay behrens

Bruce, shouldn't the question be, where did you get the tax returns to determine who the board members are that cannot afford o buy a Mastro catalogue? You are the one the made socio-economic statements, no Mike.

Without fail, any time you don't like someone's opinion, it becomes a class warfare issue, with you starting it.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I am NOT envious nor jealous. In fact, here is a card I consigned to Mastro back in 2001. Anyone can see the "preparation" Mastro did to this card (1st scan is before and second scan is the after pic). Instead of being jealous, Jay Behrens, Jim Crandell, myself and MANY other true collectors would really simply LOVE TO SEE MASTRO BE HONEST AND CLEAN UP THEIR ACT, INSTEAD OF CLEANING UP CARDS!

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Posted By: MikeU

"It is an indictment of Mastro if they're using strongarm tactics to manipulate the authentication business. That said, we're only getting one side of the story here."

I do not think you can strong arm a nearly monopolist firm.

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Posted By: john

?????????

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Posted By: jay behrens

Straight from Websters, with apologies to Bruce for not using Oxford's Unabridged

Main Entry: ob·strep·er·ous
Pronunciation: &b-'stre-p(&-)r&s, äb-
Function: adjective
Etymology: Latin obstreperus, from obstrepere to clamor against, from ob- against + strepere to make a noise
1 : marked by unruly or aggressive noisiness : CLAMOROUS <obstreperous merriment>
2 : stubbornly resistant to control : UNRULY
synonym see VOCIFEROUS
- ob·strep·er·ous·ly adverb
- ob·strep·er·ous·ness noun

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: David Davis

Correct spelling is "obstreperous". It means to be stubbornly defiant and aggressively boisterous.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I believe Bruce types his posts with the same Thesaurus Mastro uses to concoct their auction descriptions with.

BTW - Barry, it was a real pleasure to receive your last auction catalog. Short and to the point descriptions - great!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Thanks Scott. I'm a firm believer in being succinct. The cards and the pictures speak for themselves...and does anybody really read all that drivel?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I do. With so few decent comics in the newspaper anymore, I need to find my laughs anywhere I can.

Jay- loves Get Fuzzy and wishes The Boondocks would come back soon.

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: John

Oh Bruce...Bruce...Bruce..Bruce...ahhhhh

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I hate to be the grammar/spelling cop tonight, but when one is as arrogant as Bruce and speaks (types) like he's the King of England shouldn't he at least be able to spell?

What the hell is "upmost"? And you have at least one other misspelled word in there too Bruce, but I'll let you figure it out. Consider it an educational exercise.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Scott, what did you do when you noticed Mastro "prepared" your card? Did they mention the "preparations" they made in the description?

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Posted By: Mark L

Scott-- whatever you think about preparation, you have to admit they did a pretty nice job on that card. What do you suppose they used?

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I just realized that most of the known T207 Red Cross cards came from the same collector that adhered them with the same glue as all the T215 Red Cross cards which are normally found with the same yucky brown bugger at the top.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

I will begin this piece by saying I can not spell. I will make mistakes. I am not perfect. Now that I said that I will vent. What is wrong with you people. This is not a joke, it is a problem that you look at and you laugh I went to prison because it was easy to cheat and lie to people. Its not funny. You trust people to do the right thing. You send items to be authenticated and graded and when your cheated it cost you money. If Masto fixed that card it as bad as forgery or any other crime. You made money cheating someone. If you doctored a card and sold it as authentic you cheated people.I talked to Leon today and I asked him what is the difference between a club house sig and a forgery. His answer was there is no difference. It is the same with cards. If you change what that card is it is no longer authentic. I find it insulting to see grown men make fools out of themselves. I put that article up to show you what is happening over and over again in this hobby. Your answers at the start where important and then as usual you make fun of yourself's. This is a forum for people who care what is happening to this hobby. I have spent the last seven years trying to make up for something I did. Now I look at the replies on this site and find out that most of you don't care so long its in your best interest. Well I will tell you that if it keeps going the way it is your cards and this hobby will be like Confederate Money. Stop this BS and care what the hell is happening out there.

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Posted By: Scot Reader

I used to view claims of preferential grading by PSA for large customers with some skepticism; however, I find it hard to understand Mr. Allen's email quotes as expressing anything other than a claim that Mastro could have obtained from PSA a preferential grade on the ball simply because it is Mastro.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I knew of the "alteration" "cleaning" "preparation" (whatever Doug Allen is calling it this week) before the auction catalog came out. I was getting out of collecting and consigned the card directly to Doug Allen in/around 2001. I was going to post the description, but it was too large and I had to cut out the pic of the card itself and omit the description Mastro provided in the catalog. I know Doug has said different since, but when he contacted me via phone, he said the "cleaning" of the card would only require a Q-Tip and bleach. I was against it, as I don't believe in alterations. PLUS, I thought the card would sell better without cleaning, since people would recongnize the back as the card being in Lipset's Encyclopedia. Without the "bugger" at the top, as Scott B. refers to, I thought people would not recognize the card from Lipset's Encyclopedia. To make a long story short, I agreed to the cleaning, as I was getting out of the Hobby (which lasted a couple of years), and Mastro cleaned the card, listed it WITHOUT stating anything about the cleaning and sold it - end of story.

BTW - Barry, what I really hate as well in auction house (and some eBay) descriptions, is when the seller gives stats and tells how great a player is - Hell, if someone is bidding on a vintage Cobb with Cobb back, they probably know Cobb is the all time leader in batting average! Keep up the nice auctions, and I look forward to your next "NO NONSENSE" auction!

Dan B. - I was about to say something regarding Bruce's use of "upmost" instead of utmost. Glad you brought that to "their" attention!

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

the four Red Cross T207's from the LA find all had the "bugger" at the top, as well as the T215's from the find.

Shelly - I agree with EVERYTHING you stated. From my experiences, Mastro is doing nothing short of STEALING from people with these alterations and lack of explanations in their auction descriptions.

Scott R. - I have heard from several honorable people (many of whom post on this board) that Doug and people from Mastro (including Bill Mastro) have told them to let Mastro do the submitting for their consignments. These people were told that Mastro WILL get them higher grades than if the cards were submitted by these individuals! Again, this is coming second hand from some people on this board, but I would believe these people, as I have known them for years and they ARE HONEST!

Everyone - Just wondering what are people's thoughts as to the T207 Blackburne I posted? What are your views on this one? Is this form of altering OK????

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

from the Mastro auction.

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Posted By: paul

Not THE Shelley Jaffe?

Or should we better know you as "Eddie" of HBO fame?


Anyway, if you are the same Shelley Jaffe, why on earth after being nabbed in the Operation Bullpen Sting have you now decided to turn over a new leaf and become a crusader for all that's right and good with the world and to correct the ills of the industry? You didn't seem to have a problem stocking and presumably selling questionable material before you were arrested.

According to the FBI, your seized inventory consisted of:

Shelly's Cards
(Shelly Jaffe)
Tustin, CA


Baseballs 144 Hats/Helmets 22
Photos/Posters 104 Other Balls, Pucks 1
Bats 13 Albums, CDs, etc. 0
Cuts 1 Misc. 0
Jerseys 4


Have you recompensed (made whole) any and all customers that purchased any questionable material? I realize that you've served your time, but as we've recently seen with other convicted felons in the industry, this aspect seems to be often overlooked.


Gotta be honest with you, if you are the same Shelley Jaffe, I sure as hell don't have any time for you or your agenda. Doing time at Club Fed does not exonerate you especially when the conviction is in an industry that you now purport an earnest desire to clean up when you were a part of the problem to begin with.

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Posted By: joebrennan

"What is particularly interesting to us is that many of the lead attackers don't
even have the resources to buy the catalog never mind the items that
are being sold."

A direct quote by the Foreskin group to once again put down collectors in this hobby that have a life other than refering to ourself in two or more people with a partner almost assuredly named Sybil.

Right on cue you prove again what a pompous ass you really are. Typical Forskin post. And you have the nerve to call me low class.I don't think low life windbag does justice to your disreguard for anyone but yourself and your imaginary we that is always mentioned that makes you look more and more like a classic case headed for Belview. When is enough, enough for you.

The Brennan Group of one.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: DJ

I will quote Comte de Lautreamont: "Poetry must be made by all and not by one."

Shelly, when Jim got on his soap box (and for correct reasons), basically everyone tugged as his shirt tails to get him off. The truth of the matter is that nobody cares about who gets harmed in the card or autograph business, whether a crease is removed and sold for thousands more, or whether an authenticator was shady in their ways. Is any of this a white collar crime?

We prefer to look the other way before we admit there is an issue with something we love. I think we are so immune to this kind of stuff, that it's accepted. Will people still buy from Mastro? Of course. Head high in bad news...prices will still be through the roof.

Here is the link to the above mention Game Used Forum thread involving a Michael Jordan jersey.

http://www.gameuseduniverse.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=9946

Read the last thread...so I will now include that to what I

Bill Daniels situation...Shill Bidding accusations...The PSA/DNA and Ruth item mentioned here...Michael Jordan College jersey. What else?

As far as Bruce goes...seriously, exit this Forum for good. You can't open your mouth without saying something that will offend and "WE" all disagree with.

DJ

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Posted By: joebrennan

"I will quote Comte de Lautreamont: "Poetry must be made by all and not by one."

There are more poets than people that read poetry.

There are more personalities than 1 in the Dorkskin group.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Believe it or not, there are those who are turned off by the "class warfare" that goes on here. I guess I know b/c I am one of them. I went from making nice money in the insurance business to being disabled in no time at all it seems. My monthly income now is just enough to cover the bills and pay for my double wide (which was recently made fun of by the forum owner here). I don't live in a 6000 square foot home, nor refer to myself in the plural. However, I love this Hobby just as much, if not more, than people who look down on the "armpit" collectors like myself.

I don't think I will ever understand why some Hobbyists will turn the other way when it comes to Mastro and what goes on at their Empire, nor attack Jim Crandell when he wanted to take action and try to clean this Hobby up. I do know there is a small group of collectors, including myself, who really care about this Great Hobby and can put aside our differences to, at the very least, try and expose these auction houses and other individuals who do wrong. Happy Collecting!

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Posted By: leon

If you say one more peep about me, or make a reference towards me, you will be banned forever from this forum.....Period....

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Posted By: jay behrens

And here I thought you were allowed to post anything as long as it was true and you put your name to it.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

"I am the son of a man and a woman, from I have been told. This astonishes me. I thought I was something more."

For what it's worth, that's my favorite quote from from Comte de Lautreamont, a 19th century French speaking Uruguayan writer who and is considered the first surrealist due to his iconic book Les Chants de Maldoror. Maldoror is something of a monster, sort of a damned figure, and he is the narrator. The book is heavy, written as a collage and considered corrosive even by today's social standards. What's interesting is that it was written by a apparently normal, about 22 year old college student who died soon after. The book was not discovered and published until years after he had died.

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Posted By: jay behrens

David, lol. Great line. I've never heard of the guy. But then again, my reading is pretty much limited so sci-fi and fantasy and books by H P Lovecraft.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Paul, i am the Shelly Jaffe who was Eddie and I am the same Shelly Jaffe that found UDA selling a $85000 card that was phony. I don't know who you are but I never hid who I am. What I said here is true. If you have problem with what I did that is fine but if you have a problem with what i said here I feel sorry for you. I am a bad guy I did every thing that was said about me but I have the balls to admit it. Where are yours when it come to what is taking place today not yesterday. You want to talk about me that is fine. Leon knows about me and trusts that what I say is fact not fiction. I know more about what went on this hobby than you ever will. If you doubt what I am saying ask the big boys. Heitman, Hughes, Mastro, Spence and the list goes on. I just want the bull s-it to stop. If you have problem with that then so be it. There is no one on this site that didn't know who I was. I also find it surprising that you didn't read that I said I went to jail for what I did. I am a person who made a mistake and people are now asking for my help to make sure it doesn't happen to other people. If you have a problem with that, I guess you don't really care who cheats, who lies or who steals. Oh and by the way every peron that bought from me was paid back and if you have the nerve call Tim Fitzsimmons at the San Diego FBI and ask him what he thinks about me.1-858-565-1255. Now if you have anymore questions please list them.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Because Crandall, for all his pious purported discussion about cleaning up the hobby, was (and still seems to be) absolutely unwilling to donate even 1 of his precious 25,000 slabbed cards to be looked at, especially those that are probably altered. Since that graded/altered card thing is his thesis, he has zero credibility. Leading from behind generally doesn't work.

So, Scott, that leaves you. I don't doubt that you love the hobby, as you see it. I do think that a lot of your "love" seems to be based on what you think you can get for your cards. In that regard, I have noticed that you have had not a problem one putting some stuff on the BST thread - the thread sponsored by the evil dictator Leon. Do you not see the contradiction? If not, you need to think more. Best,

Kenny Cole

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Posted By: DJ

David,

You even edited your own post THREE times about Lautréamont!

Did Leon call because he's not a fan of the avant-garde French Surrealist Imagery?



DJ

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Paul, I would advice anyone that has not read about me to google Shelly Jaffe and they will find the same in depth reporting that you did. You will also notice that its from 6 years ago. It also tells you that there is a lot more bad people out there. Are you one of them?

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

in order to fund a recent purchase. Sorry, I must sell cards in order to obtain others I want, as I don't have unlimited funds.

As to your remark regarding me listing cards on the B/S/T thread here, I was doing that before yourself or Leon were even on these boards. I was selling cards on the old Full Count board before Leon was collecting Pre-War as a matter of fact. Just as Jay has stated before when asked why he still posts here while not agreeing with the way Leon runs things, I will give you the same answer - To me, this is home. I am an "old timer" on this board. Again, I was posting on the old Full Count board way before yourself or Leon.

If Leon feels he needs to ban me, then so be it. I cannot see anything I have posted in this thread that is not true. If I am banned for posting the truth, that will be the ultimate form of censorship and really look more bad on Leon than myself. Besides, it will give me more time to post on the 13 posts per day Aimoo board.

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Posted By: JimB

I hate to participate in this, but I can't let this one pass.

Scott said,

"I don't think I will ever understand why some Hobbyists will turn the other way when it comes to Mastro "

It should not be that hard to understand since you did it when you stood to profit from it. See T207 Red Cross above.
JimB

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Posted By: Kevin Sacuier

"Because Crandall, for all his pious purported discussion about cleaning up the hobby, was (and still seems to be) absolutely unwilling to donate even 1 of his precious 25,000 slabbed cards to be looked at, especially those that are probably altered."




That's not exactly true. Although I don't claim to be an expert, many trust my opinion when it comes to identifying altered cards...Jim included. We have talked and in the not so distant future I will be inspecting several of his graded cards at no cost.



Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: rand

this board offers incredible knowledge, opinions, and life experience in this ever so complicated hobby. the topic of this thread touches on the largest fear of the grading aspect of the hobby, PSA being biased, and not truly acting as an independant 3rd party.
instead of thoughtful insight, legality issues, and general concerns, we get everything from name calling to income differences. Why dont we start a separate and individual thread on each person that contributes to the board, then the personal attacks can be aired there, so we can stick to the topics that are offered. this board is free, the knowledge on the board was learned by mistakes or years of research, which are not free. so, can we get away from the petty BS, and stick to the topic at hand?

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Posted By: John

"Because Crandall, for all his pious purported discussion about cleaning up the hobby, was (and still seems to be) absolutely unwilling to donate even 1 of his precious 25,000 slabbed cards to be looked at, especially those that are probably altered."


"That's not exactly true. Although I don't claim to be an expert, many trust my opinion when it comes to identifying altered cards...Jim included. We have talked and in the not so distant future I will be inspecting several of his graded cards at no cost. "


If they turn out to be trimmed/altered will they be labeled and sold as such in the future?

Jim if you’re out there are you that committed to the issue of cleaning up the hobby…that you would take a bath on your very expensive purchases?

Just curious, that’s all.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I gave in to Doug Allen on the T207 Red Cross, b/c he insisted and I was getting out of the Hobby at the time. I did NOT alter the card. I did NOT even bring up anything about it. Doug Allen contacted me about it and kept insisting. They had my card at the time. If I would have made Doug mad, what would he have done? I don't know. I thought it best to let them do what they wanted, me get the money for my card and leave the Hobby for a while. Hell, I didn't want to say no and have Mastro return my card to me in two halves!

Jim, maybe if you spend more time researching cards than trying to place the blame on me for Mastro altering a card I sent them on consignment, you wouldn't be buying E93's that have been altered as ghost images!

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

This thread gets better by the second. I love threads like this. I can't bear to look away.

-Al

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Posted By: Tony

I am an idiot and got banned....

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Nice seeing you at the national, even if it was only on the bus ride .

Throwing mud at Jim B. is just plain dumb Scott E. What he asked was a very reasonable and natural extention of your post, and the seeming inconsistency of blasting Mastro for altering cards - and you yourself participating in passing off just such a card on an unsuspecting buyer.
Your explanation of fearing damage to your cards sounds lame.
Hypocrisy, you bear thy name. (Or is that 'thine' name?)


Daniel

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Hi Daniel!

Since this thread has gotten so far off topic with everyone's personal agendas, I won't hesitate to say it was a pleasure (and total fluke) meeting you at the show as well...and I'm sad to say that the card I went racing into the show to buy was, indeed, gone.

The buyer was just like me - he saw the card the night before, thought about it overnight, and went to the show first thing in the morning to buy it. I had the same idea, but decided to have breakfast first.

So the way I look at it, I ate a $700 omelet and met Daniel Enright as a result. Not a bad deal for me.

-Al

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Posted By: Tony

I am an idiot and got banned

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

I NEVER passed off any card that was altered. Hell, I don't even know how to alter a card (NEVER HAVE, as I would be afraid of ruining it). Fact is, Jim B. was trying to blame me for what Doug Allen and Mastro did. Fact is Jim B. is probably still mad b/c I questioned a "Proof" Ty Cobb with Ty Cobb back he bought from Mastro and sold to someone who reads this board (I still have the e-mails from Jim asking that I NOT say anything negative about that card on this board, as the person he sold the card to reads this board).

Also, you have shown ill feelings towards me E. Daniel ever since I would NOT sell you a Red Hindu common for a $200 loss on the B/S/T thread - it is still there if the thread was never deleted in fact. I put it on eBay and you were outbid. Don't blame me for you wanting to underpay for a card and me NOT being naive enough to sell it to you for a loss! Again, I did NOT sell the Red Cross nor alter it. In fact, I still have the Mastro catalog where MASTRO sold the card after THEY altered it. Don't show a low IQ by blaming me. Mastro had my card and I wasn't going to do anything at the time to piss them off and receive a card back in two halves or something! If you or Jim want to place the blame regarding the altered Red Cross PLEASE be intelligent enough to place the blame where it lies - with Mastro and Doug Allen!

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Posted By: JimB

Scott,
I bought that card in a Lew Lipset auction. I corresponded with the consignor who bought the card for $15 or 20 (I forget now) from a guy who thought it was worthless printers scrap. Obviously it was not the product of a card doctor trying to cash in. Because a card doctor could approximate that does not make it the case with my card. If so, then every blank back T206, etc. is a fraud. The one person who thought it might have been doctored has never held the card or examined it and later admitted he could not be sure when questioned. I have examined it under a black light and 10x loupe and found no evidence of alteration.

As for your your own dealings and opinions about Mastro, that is your **** and I am not interested in debating the topic any further. I think the truth is self-evident.
JimB

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Scott:

I understand your point here, but since you and I have been able to disagree in the past without it becoming personal, I'm going to take a risk and disagree with you again here.

You were the owner of the card, and you were willing to accept whatever was done to the card, in the interest of ensuring the card sold for a maximum price. I agree with both Jim and Daniel here. You yourself said you "allowed" the alteration to happen partially because you were getting out of the hobby anyway.

To blame the auction house when you, at any time, could have said no and let the card sell in its natural state - or even taken it back and given it to another auction house - seems awfully odd, particularly when I haven't seen anyplace where you state that you refused to take the money for the card that you claim to have been coerced into having fixed.

In the end you were complicit in doing precisely what you are now trying to stop. You yourself didn't pull the trigger, but you authorized the hit, figuratively speaking.

Which is fine - we all make mistakes and we all have lapses in judgement (I make mistakes every day). I think everybody understands your position on alterations, and most of us share your position. But trying to justify what was done to that card by claiming innocence and directing all the blame toward the auction house rings hollow. To continuously claim that Jim and Daniel are disagreeing with you because they have some agendas, when there are clearly issues with the statements you're making about the card, is also pretty hollow.

-Al

Edited to fix spelling before Barry got me.

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Posted By: JimB

Is this the e-mail you are referring to? I am not at all ashamed of what I said. Your insinuations that the card was fake were reckless and unfair to the current owner. And FYI, I had completely forgotton about this when I pointed out the irony of your current musings.

"Hi Scott,
How's it going? I wanted to write to you about your comment on Net54 about the hand-cut Ty Cobb back that REA (while under the Mastro umbrella) sold about seven years ago. You seemed to insinuate that the card was not authentic since it looks "VERY DIFFERENT" from "REAL" copies. Do you have any grounds for making that kind of claim? Though I am no longer the owner of that card, I was for many years. I have also owned at different times two other Ty Cobb backs and have seen nine of the twelve known copies of the card. Other than not having the the shallack gloss that the others have and the hand-cut, it looks exactly like the others (and like all other T206 Cobb/reds for that matter). I spoke with Rob Lifson about the card extensively before I bought it in that auction many years ago. He believed that it must have been pulled before a complete production run or that it was some sort of proof. I see absolutely no evidence to presume otherwise. Do you think it is not authentic or not period in some way? If so, what is your evidence? If not, I think you are being a little reckless to throw out off-handed rumors on a public discussion board about that card that are not substantiated. I traded that card to a friend who is very proud to have it in his collection. It is also a very valuable card as you know. When a respected person in the hobby like yourself makes a comment like that on a public discussion board, it threatens to devalue a card like that, potentially undeservedly so. I don't think the current owner has any plans to sell it, but that is not really the point. If there is evidence, other than your hunch, I would be very curious to hear it. Otherwise, I think it would be good to be careful about throwing out unsubstantiated claims on a public board. I should mention that this is coming 100% from me. I have not spoken with the current owner and do not know if he even saw you post. He is a lurker on Net54.

I just want to say that on a personal note I have generally appreciated your contributions over the years and have a lot of respect for your hobby knowledge. (2 sentences deleted here about an irrelavent matter) I hope you don't take this note to you the wrong way. I was just a bit concerned about the public perception of a card I know intimately, used to own, and have 100% confidence in its authenticity.
Best,
Jim Blumenthal"

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Posted By: JimB

By the way, I have the e-mail response in which you say that you have NO proof.
JimB

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Posted By: shelly jaffe

Ps. Tony. And who better than I to know all the bad people that are still out there. If HBO, SCD,New York Times, The New York Daily News, Richard Simon, Jsa, and the FBI trust what I am doing then you opinion is mute.
This is not about me. Its about the story . You can try and make me out to be the bad guy but not when this doesn't concern me.
Tony why are afraid of what I said?