Legal issues in the hobby

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Posted By: leon

I will actually agree with your post but, quite honestly, it is more about the value of the cards going up than the holders. Don't get me wrong I do agree that many times the highest graded cards have gone up faster but my collection is far from high grade and it's gone up dramatically since I bought it. I have personally gotten most of my most valuable cards graded myself after buying them raw.....

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

We'll have to compare return on invested capital and if mine is higher maybe you won't think I'm a moron anymore.

I would say in general that high grade graded cards have far outperformed ungraded.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Jim,

You don't know me but many on this board/in this hobby do. You have every right to disagree with my views and believe that I express them out of sour grapes. But trust me when I tell you I have no envies/frustrations that I missed the boom on anything.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jim- if the owners of ungraded cards are envious of collectors who have graded ones, which I tend to doubt, wouldn't they just go out and get them graded? Seems like it's never too late if you choose to do so.

And vintage cards have increased in value across the board. Great rarities like E107 have multiplied as much as any high end T206 or Goudey. They just don't exist in NR MT condition.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Corey,

I didn't suggest that you did have them--its obvious though that some do.

Barry,

I said high grade vintage sportscards--most collectors of ungraded cards on this board do not own them in high grade.

For example I bought a high grade 41 Play Ball psa 10 from Dave Forman in the early 90s for about $250. Its a pop 1 and probably would sell for $20,000 today. While that may be extreme, almost every prewar 8 I bought 10-15 years ago is at a minimum 5-10 bagger and in many cases substantially more.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

It will be impossible ever to compare the rates of returns on graded v. ungraded due to the obvious fact that ungraded cards are more difficult to slot into categories of comparison due to their lack of grade! Unless you can track exact card for exact card, there's no point.

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Posted By: barrysloate

But as we've said before many vintage cards simply do not exist in high grade yet have likewise skyrocketed.

Compare the price of an Old Judge California League player from ten years ago to today. It's probably increased 20 fold, and that would apply for a PSA 2.

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Posted By: leon

I take back the "moron" comment about you. I did edit it out but I know someone else still had it in a post. I should have been nicer but you would have to be in my shoes sometimes. I love the hobby and don't think I am the way some folks portray me to be. I can assure anyone I don't run this board for the millions I make off of it . And yes, I will compare notes with you on values....My guess is almost anything (pre wwII, anyway) bought more than about 2 yrs ago has done very well. best regards

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I just don't think its true across the board.

Leon,

We differ on card restoration although I believe I did read that you said that you believe now that any alteration prior to grading is wrong.

I do appreciate you clamping down on the personal attacks. These two or three posters come out of the blue and the only thing they do is attack me without addressing any issue.

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Posted By: Joann

Jim,

I would like to politely ask you to refrain from derailing this thread. I am finding it both helpful and fascinating, and would like any remaining life it has left to be spent on topic.

To take a law-based discussion on the potential liabilities in the graded card arena and turn it into a statement regarding the motivations of some of the posters (envy over the money that graded collectors are making, and frustration over having missed out) is inflammatory enough to turn this into yet another flame war.

Please allow this thread to go on the course it had been following.

Thanks.

Joann

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm responsible too Joann, so I will cease and desist (legalese!)

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Okay Joann--will do.

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Posted By: P Spaeth

Jim, I dare you to crack that card out and resubmit it.

On a serious note, and hopefully getting back to the subject of the thread, I do think that while there has been a tremendous increase in demand for (and therefore price of ) cards, there exists a serious potential to derail all that if (through litigation or otherwise) what is now largely fear innuendo and speculation becomes proven -- namely that a whole hell of a lot of big dollar high end cards are altered. I think that when you start seeing lawsuits, and I believe you will, the legal principles and results that emerge from the first few cases could have very important implications for auction houses, dealers, grading services, and collectors.

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Posted By: leon

Sorry about that Joann...I got derailed too and didn't even realize it. Back to legal stuff.....