Is the Grading System Broken?

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Posted By: barrysloate

After I read through the recent thread of SGC vs. PSA, a lot of not so pleasant information began to filter through. We have had numerous discussions about the grading services and many of the inherent problems have been brought to light.

While all of these issues would be too numerous to recount, we've had discussions about altered cards finding their way into holders; about the inconsistencies between one service and another; about the inconsistencies within each service that allows cards to be resubmitted until they are eventually bumped a grade; stories are now circulating about owners of grading companies also engaging in selling cards (clear conflict of interest); about large dealers influencing graders and getting friendly bumps; and many others that I can't think of at the moment.

So is it time for a major overhaul of the whole process? Any institution that has been around a long time tends to crack a little around the foundation, especially those that wield so much power. I feel that if all these problems continue unchecked, the whole system may eventually collapse.

Anybody have any thoughts on this? I for one would love to see the grading services do a job as close to perfection as possible, but it doesn't seem like that's where things are headed.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"So is it time for a major overhaul of the whole process?"



IMO, yes but I don't know what.

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Posted By: Mike

Have any proposals?

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Posted By: Jason L

When did it start to go in the wrong direction?
Was there an inflection point and characteristics that we can point to?
I would to think that competition will fix alot of what ails a market (more consistent grading and honest business practices winning the day)...but as Barry points out, I'm not sure this is happening...

If an overhaul, what kind?
Are just heading right back down the same road Jim Crandell tried to champion here a few months back? Everyone gave him grief for just being self-serving (which may have been obvious), but hey, it actually IS in everyone's best interest, -even little old me, with no card worth more than $500- to know that even those cards haven't been altered from a card that used to be worth $50...
If an overhaul, what kind?
--It must involve market forces, but there is always a potential for conflicted interests when profit motive is invloved
--The regulatory solution will always have the potential for corruption

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Posted By: Glyn Parson

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Posted By: Jim Dale

First thing I can think of to "correct" the issues is to document problems. Sadly a lot of the complaints are issued by one side who doesn't like the other (PSA vs SGC). Not too mention those who don't care for graded at all. Some how, some way, someone needs to account for "real" errors and list them out. If either company had an interest in continuance they would fix the problems. All companies should then address more political issues like grading for big dealers, resubmissions for bumps, etc. If they don't - hopefully they lose business because of it and the companies that do - gain business because they did.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

As an owner of 25,000 plus graded cards with a true vested interest in saying it isn't broken, the truth is that it may well be. I'm just not sure what can be done if the major grading companies do not get on board and if many of the leading national dealers and auction houses continue business as usual. It takes a collector revolt in my opinion but few seem to have the appetite or desire to take this on.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You are probably right that not enough people are willing to buck the system. But if it continues to decay, at some point it will simply implode.

The coin grading business proceeded the same way with all sorts of major dealers getting special treatment until it was publicly exposed, and then the coin business had to go through a painful regrouping. I predict the same thing will happen with cards. It just hasn't happened yet.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

I have believed for years, and with everything I read about the hobby, this continues to be true, that we as a hobby need a true National Organization of Cards. Something similar to the American Philateic Society; American Stamp Dealer Assn; American Numismatic Assn; etc. We have had many attempts, some worthwhile, some not, over the past 30 years to get a National Association together and we need one perhaps more than ever.

It would have to be broad based as the hobby is broad based from people such as Jim, who is a collector of wonderfully high conditioned cards, to the people who go to a local store (if they are lucky enough to have one near them) or a local Walmart/Target to buy a few packs of the inexpensive new brands of cards.

While the Net 54 people have one set of priorities, other collectors have other priorities and frankly we are all equal in many ways.

Now I wish I had the $$ to get this incorporated but I've got the time and the passion to work on this, it will go well with my oral history project which is making slow and good progress.

Regards
Rich

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Posted By: Jimmy

No process is perfect, but the interest in the hobby has increased over the years because of the graded items and auctions. I like ungraded as well, and for the past year started buying more ungraded items like I did 10 years ago. There is talk that the grading system has some issues, but what business does not. The process is very subjective anyways, always has been, but the hobby needed something new back in the early 90s to keep it going. I do agree the leading companies need to get out there and take control of the problems that come up. I do like the idea of a National Organization to help with collectors needs.

Jimmy

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Posted By: Larry

It's not just broken. It is corrupt and geared toward regular customers and dealers getting the bump up on grades.

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Posted By: P Spaeth

Barry I think everyone shares your concerns and idealism, but until people vote with their feet (to quote Lenin), nothing is going to change. We all bemoan how bad the grading services (or at least some of them are), yet how many who went down the graded card route have stopped because of this? Au contraire, it seems to me, judging from the auctions and ebay, sales are as strong as ever if not stronger. And if that is so, there is no incentive for anyone to change.

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Posted By: barrysloate

My question is how does it change? How do we get the grading companies to do it right? I think things are getting worse, not better, and it's business as usual because buyers and sellers need to earn a living and where else is there to go?

I will say this again- I predict in the not too distant future something major will go down and changes will by necessity have to be made.

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Posted By: Brett

Whats stopping the graders from accepting bribes ? I mean for some of rare cards, a PSA 7 to a 8 is a huge jump in price. I'm not saying that they do accept bribes, but theres no stopping it at a sports card show or something.

There should be some high tech computer to scan the card to see if its been altered and trimmed. Then a grade can be determined !

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Peter,

I have stopped buying cards from sets that are most susceptible to alteration(T206, Goudey and Play Ball).

Read Glyn Parson's earlier comment.

Either graded card collectors are paying no attention to what is said on LTS, Net 54 and to a lesser extent on the SGC boards or they are just ignoring it and are happy to own altered cards as long as it reaches their desired grade.

I don't get it but if things continue on their present path I would bet some of the big money buyers are going to stop buying and that will cause a drop--maybe a sharp one--in the market.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

I think a few changes could be made ...mainly continuing education for the graders of grading companies. However, I would politely disagree and don't think a major overhaul is needed nor is a major situation going to happen that will force change. The sky isn't falling.....those are just rain clouds.....just my personal opinion.....No different than some tough days, in the past moderating the board. It never needed to be shut down it just needed to be gotten back on track.......It was and within a day or two things were ok again. The hobby is fine....graders need to continue to work on improving to keep up with the scammers....and MOST importantly....collectors need to learn more about cards ourselves. I can't tell you how many cards I don't bid on due to the way the borders look, even when in a holder. BUY BIG BORDERS......Know the series you collect.....Be happy and have fun ...it's a hobby....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- and I will politely disagree with you. I think there are major problems going on under the radar that most of us, myself included, do not know about.

Yes, you can go about your business collecting VG cards and having fun. No disagreement there. But you also have to accept the fact that there are many high end collectors investing major dollars into the hobby, and things may not be as rosy for them.

It's better to look at the whole picture than just your own collecting habits. You've found a comfort zone, but that doesn't mean everybody is going to come out of this hobby feeling good about their experience.

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Leon,

I couldn't disagree more. Collectors should not have to put up with a significant and growing percentage of cards in holders being altered. Lets say for sake of argument that 15% of pre-war cards in holders have been trimmed--lets say a year from now its 20%. You say know your cards and I am not disparaging your knowledge here but we are talking about alterations so sophisticated that they are getting past the graders....and as I have said many times there is as much alteration of crooks trying to get 3s to 4s and 4s to 5s as 7s to 8s.

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Posted By: leon

I think we will continue to agree to disagree in a polite and respectful manner.

Barry- You are absolutely correct, and I am probably wrong, but I don't worry about what others problems are. I will leave that to them. If they want to collect high grade that is their business and bless their hearts.....Just not my cup 'o tea.

Jim C- I am far, far from an expert but have handled a few cards. I will always agree to disagree with your thought that there are as many issues with lower grade cards as there are with higher graded ones. I will never believe my gd-vg's have as many issues as PSA 8,9,10.....The few cards I have in high grade condition have come with provenance that I believe....BTW, I am one that thinks you care as much or more about collecting as the rest of us....I also feel you are a bit more worried than myself about cards being doctored, specifically high grade ones.....best regards

changed "we" to "I"....and no further comment

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Posted By: barrysloate

Leon- this time I will politely agree to agree with you (I don't even know what I'm talking about).

While there are clearly more high grade cards in holders that have been tampered with, I do think that the so-called set registry crowd has the same right as everyone else to get a card that is not altered, properly graded, and not given an extra bump because of who submitted it.

We tend to be hard on the high end collectors but they have the same rights as the armpit guys. Just because someone has a great deal of money doesn't mean he isn't entitled to be treated fairly.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

No. It is collectors who are broken. Collectors who substitute a third party opinion for their own education, experience and learning. Collectors who collect a number on a flip rather than the card in the holder. Collectors who continue to accept the word of one "prophet" or another about the relative quality of cards that are indistinguishable to the collector's naked eye. When we invest near supernatural belief in a grading service and grant talismanic effect to the embodiment of another fallible human's opinion, we declare ourselves unthinking creatures. The issue is not whether the "system" is broken; it is what we can do to avoid depending so heavily on a system that at its core is nothing more than another person's opinion.

Card grading should never be used as a substitute for intelligence, judgment and skill but should instead ideally function as an additional tool to supplement a collector's experienced and appreciative eye, as a means of resolving disputes over a card grade via a disinterested third party opinion, and as a means of ensuring to some extent that a card generally grades about what the advertisement says it does.

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Posted By: JimB

I sense a 200+ post thread coming on.
JimB

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Posted By: D. C. Markel

Excellent post boxingcardman! I was going to say something similar but you nailed it exactly.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Adam- I've long agreed with your position and I believe every collector should learn how to grade his own cards and not be so dependent upon a grader who may not know very much at all.

But one area where I am the first to admit I need assistance is detecting alterations. That's where a grading service, having both sophisticated equipment and ostensibly the knowledge to detect them, could be a huge asset to the hobby.

But they seem to be dropping the ball on it, and if altered cards continue to get graded then the hobby is headed for a big fall.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Sensational post! Couldn't agree more.

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Posted By: barrysloate

But Corey, you do agree that the grading companies could do a great service to the collecting community by detecting alterations?

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Yes. My view that many "collectors" take a robotic view of collecting and regard the holder as an end to itself does not mean that I don't think the grading companies cannot do a better job of both detecting alterations and being more consistent in their grading.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

yeah...what Adam (boxingcardman) said.

Barry, where will these grading companies get the expertise necessary to dectect advanced alerations if they already feel they have the best in place? It's a catch 22...yes?


"But one area where I am the first to admit I need assistance is detecting alterations."

I am the second. It's an subject where learning is never ending.


Kevin

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Posted By: T206Collector

...but also, as I have said before, as long as SGC guarantees that your card has not been altered, with a money-backed guarantee, then any future discovery that your card has been altered will be remedied.

The day that SGC turns away a refund in the face of persuasive evidence of an alteration is the day we are in trouble. And when that happens, I do think there will be a market for another grading company that stands by its guarantees.

Having a card slabbed by SGC today does not mean that it will make sense for SGC to have slabbed it 5, 10 or more years from now. It just provides a relatively trustworthy, money-backed guaranteed, opinion as to the condition of a card. If that changes, another grading company will crop up that will satisfy the hole in the market left by a formerly trustworthy source.

In my opinion, there will only be a problem if and when there exist no third party grading companies with a money backed guarantee that means something. SGC fills that hole in the consumer market today.

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Posted By: Joann

What a great thread. EVERYBODY so far has been right!

Yes, the system is broken for all of the reasons Barry mentioned in the first post. Yes, it poses a threat to some of the financial underpinnings of the hobby, and Jim C has said. Yes, the practices of collectors are helping drive the problem - see Adam's post upthread.

There are many products that are certified by an independent third party as actually meeting standards and being what they are purported to be. UL does it for electronic devices, SEI in Arlington does it for safety products, CSA in Canada does it for just about everything. This is not new ground here.

But does that mean I could open up Joann Kline's Certification Company for safety devices? I could, but no one would buy anything marked as JK certified. Why? Because it wouldn't mean anything except that an individual or a company has asserted an opinion. No different than what you could get from the next barstool.

But all of the organizations mentioned above are themselves certified by accreditation bodies. Certify the certifier, so to speak. And that's why their marks and certification matter to the markets.

They have to demonstrate consistent practices, equal treatment of all product, qualified personnel - everything that's been mentioned in this thread so far. They are regularly audited to assure that the practices remain in place and are effective. So people will buy the UL mark or the SEI mark or the CSA mark because they know that these organizations are subject to oversight.

But who would provide the oversight for card grading companies? Maybe this is exactly where Jim C's efforts could have been heading. A card-based organization that would certify the certifiers as following good and standard practices. Or maybe a current accreditation body could expand its scope to include third party baseball card graders.

Why hasn't it happened? Because the market hasn't reflected any demand. There are many collectors that buy graded cards despite the known weaknesses in the system - Adam's post above. And I think Barry is right in that the inconsistencies both within and between the grading companies are reaching the point where something will have to happen - there is simply too much money involved at this point (Jim C, above).

So maybe the market will start self-correcting, and the increasing reasons to doubt the reliability of any given grade will show up in sales of slabbed cards. Or maybe some person or entity will start some process for giving accreditation to grading companies. Who knows, maybe neither. I think it's in the best interest of the grading companies to start pursuing accreditation oversight on their own, before all credibility is lost. The Registries can only support the market for so long.

For certain, two things are needed to improve and fix the system:

1) Grading standards need to be universal and not company-specfic.

2) There needs to be some kind of oversight to the third-party certifying companies (grading companies) to assure that they are following a standard set of good practices. If PSA were ever to get some kind of accreditation as a third-party certifier of product, their holder would have meaning beyond simple preference.

Just my opinion, of course. But great thread. The most important point is that this is not new ground - it is a current practice in many industries and countries. It's just far less developed in the sports cards arena.

Joann

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Dan, Corey, Boxer--could not disagree more--especially since the card alteration people are so good that 99% of the collecting hobby cannot discern the alterations. The grading companies are essential--they just have to get better.

You guys that think you are card experts--I would bet that if one of the card "magicians" laid down 5 cards he altered and 5 he didn't. you would not get it right. The future of the hobby is in grading but only if they dramatically srengthen their abilities to detect restoration.

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Posted By: rand

this is a terrific thread, as most are in this forum. One thing i have heard alot is the way PSA avoids issues. I have heard that if something is posted on the PSA board and is not complementary then they have it erased. The same complaints are voiced over and over, but no one will pay attention to it from PSA, so in their eyes there is no problem. I do agree 100% that its a grading company's job to have the technology and desire to become better. Wouldn't it be interesting if once a year all the major grading companies gave a "state of the union" address on the grading practices and how they are advancing for the upcoming year.

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Posted By: barrysloate

What I find forever baffling is the amount of money sunk into high grade cards when the subjectivity of grading can be so arbitrary.

A high end 7, for example, might be worth $100. But if it's resubmitted several times, it may eventually come back an 8. And in that case it may become a $500 card, or even a $1000 one- and it's the exact same card!!

So no matter how may times people say "buy the card, not the holder" the truth is collectors are in fact buying the holder. And very few people can even discern any difference between a strong 7 and an average 8, but they are willing to pay tenfold for it if it ultimately gets that magic label.

Is that preposterous, or what?

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

It's preposterous.

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Posted By: boxingcardman

How many times do we have to hear this same tired line about how vital the grading companies are? Vital to who? Not to me. I would be happy never to see another slab as long as I live.

I am so sick of the endless obsessing over grades, graders, the "system" and so on. If you can't handle the reality that the grading companies are staffed by fallible people who will not catch every con and cheat out there, and that cheats and cons will invariably turn up when people insist on spending stupid money on trinkets, then liquidate your collection, put your money in T-Bills or in your mattress, and give yourself a break.

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Posted By: Paul

I've been saying what Barry said about the silliness of high grade collecting for a long time. I'm glad to have such an esteemed colleague on board!

What I find especially frustrating about graded cards is that the grading process conceals alterations. If a card has been altered and graded, it can be impossible to detect the alteration through the holder.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Dear Jim,

You say you are the owner of 25,000 (PSA I presume) slabbed cards. From various posts I assume that most/all are high grade. Let's take your number that 15% are altered (though my view is that the percentage could be considerably higher). That means you have close to 4,000 altered cards in high grade holders that not only are worth considerably less than the holders indicate, but more important (from a true collectors standpoint) have materially different characteristics than their holders represent. I personally have challenged you in previous posts to have the conviction to resubmit your cards to determine if by current detection methods you might be able to filter out some of the altered cards. Your response has been an unconditional emphatic no. In my view a true collector would really want to know what he/she has, and not be content to hide behind the label on some holder that by his/her own admission has a real probability of being erroneous. While I respect very much your efforts to expose shady practices and try to improve how the grading/auction companies conduct their affairs, the fact remains that you have much more an investor's (as opposed to a true collector's) mentality. Yes I agree that it is important that grading companies do a better job of detecting alterations, and that exposing alterations is an important service to the hobby, but to say so emphatically how much you disagree with boxingman's post, the thrust of which is that true collecting is what you know, not what others tell you you should know, is not reflective of a true collecting mentality. The collectors revolt that you speak of can be started by none other than Jim Crandell making a public pronouncement that you are determined to expose the failings of the grading companies, and to that end are resubmitting all your cards to expose those that are altered. Yes you will take a big financial hit. But perhaps you more than anyone, given your vast holdings of high-grade slabbed cards, have it in your power to really do something. So if you're not willing to lead by example, then please stop bemoaning the failings in our hobby.

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

"If a card has been altered and graded, it can be impossible to detect the alteration through the holder."


That's really not too accurate. Inspecting a slabbed card takes about 10 minutes to be very thurough. That is a pixel by pixel exam, which is what you want for a high-end card. The slab just makes it more difficult and doubles the time. SGC is harder than PSA simply because the gasket is tighter.


Kevin

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Posted By: Jared

I'm a newbie, but it seems to me that a simple solution would be to eliminate the "grading" part and retain the authentication. I'll go out on a limb here and say that's all most people care about - peace of mind that the card isn't fake. Outside of that, I don't need anyone telling me whether a card looks good or not.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think collectors shouldn't take grading so seriously.

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Posted By: Brett

People should just buy the card and not the grade

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Posted By: honus3415

What protects grading companies from liability for their "opinions" is, that for the most part, they don't sell the cards they grade. A grade is basically an "opinion". An "opinion" that can be right or wrong.

What I foresee happening sometime in the not to distant future is a lawsuit against a major auction house that advertises an item as slabbed near mint which is in fact a slabbed trimmed/altered item (Honus Wagner T206). I think it may be found through our legal system that resellers of holdered items that regurgitate grades as "fact" are responsible for that item's quality indeed being accurate (to the best of their ability) as via providing a second opinion supporting that graded item. And who better to have an ability equal to or better than our revered graders than those experts at auction houses.

This would likely lead to one of two things. Either a new company will emerge whose grading would be completely automated thus eliminating today's human error and possibly biased opinions. Or all cards sold through a public forum will need to be sold raw or considered as such. Leaving the new owner to submit it for grading if they so desire.

At some point the greed at the top of the pyramid is going to demand it is getting it's money's worth. If it's sold as a gold bar it better be solid gold and not just gold plated.

Many high dollar cards are even now getting into a marketplace where there are few buyers. These people can only be so stupid for so long as to not want a second opinion on a $5,000...$10,000...$100,000...$1,000.000+ "high grade" investment item.

Soon someone is going to get hung out to dry and take a huge financial hit and then the dominos will likely start falling.

Honustradamas

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Corey,

I don't know if its 1%,2% or 15% but I would guess its pretty low.

As far as my collection not being worth what you say it is you are wrong. Every time I sell a card on ebay or privately I get full value.

And if you are that interested then cover my cost for any cards that will not grade by SGC.

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Posted By: david Poses

i agree with a previous post regarding authenticating without the need to affix a numerical grade to a card. i crack cards out of slabs as soon as i get them, so all i care about is how the card looks, not how someone i don't know thought it looked when he looked at it.

when the grade someone else assigned to a card matters more than the collector's own opinion, we have a problem. all i care about is whether the card is real and unaltered, beyond that, if a collector can't ascertain whether the card he is holding looks good or bad, well, that's just sad.

how about if the grading companies authenticate the cards and ensure that they are pure. then put all of them in "A" slabs and let the people decide. maybe if a card is a truly exemplary example, given the known total population of any given card, it can get a gold star on the slab.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

I've been going to card shows for 40 years. My collecting focus as regards cards has always been the vintage cards. I remember vividly shows I went to in the 60's and 70's where if you found a clean ex-mt of what you were looking for, you felt you hit paydirt. I remember too a conversation I had with an experienced dealer in the 80's in which he proudly showed me two '33 Goudey's that he had been trying to find for some time. This dealer, a regular on the show circuit, only collected high grade and he was thrilled to finally acquire those two cards in ex-mt condition. Yet suddenly here we are 20+ years later when it seems that all you see on dealers' tables at shows are 7's, 8's and 9's. Where did they all come from? These observations, coupled with the staggering financial incentive to "work on"/alter cards to improve their grade, lead me to believe you're being remarkably naive to believe the percentage of altered cards is as low as you say. Yet, and here's the irony, you of all people, given the statistically significant quantity of high-grade slabbed cards you own, can probably do the definitive study of the percentage of high-grade cards that are altered. If....of course, you were willing to have your cards re-examined. But as you've consistently told us, you are not willing -- unless perhaps someone is to compensate you for some portion of the costs. Maybe some executive of a PSA competitor reading this post will be willing to cut you a deal. I know if I owned a grading company that touted its ability to detect alterations better than the competition, I would leap at the chance to expose the failings of my competitors. But regardless whether that is to happen, you're the one leading the parade here about organizing a collector's revolt. Leaders cannot expect their followers to abide by a different standard than they abide by. If your standard is that you cannot suffer adverse economic consequences, then for all practical purposes the revolt can never happen. So maybe you should stop talking about it.

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Posted By: D. C. Markel

I agreed with boxingcardman's post and you "could not disagree more". I don't want to put words in your mouth Jim, but are you saying, "Card grading should ALWAYS be used as a substitute for intelligence, judgment and skill and should NOT function as an additional tool to supplement a collector's experienced and appreciative eye.......?"

First off I do believe grading has "overall" provided an invaluable service to the hobby. I would rather trust the experience of PSA or SGC over some dealer selling raw cards over the internet. Do I think grading companies catch every alteration? No. Do I think I am as good as any professional grader? Overall, clearly not, but I do believe I'm extremely good at the years I collect ('67-'72 Topps Baseball) and when you've looked and studied thousands upon thousands of those cards you develop a 6th sense of what is good and what is bad. I've spent about $400 on various types of equipment that I've found to be extremely helpful in reviewing cards and its paid for itself several times over. So yes, in those years, I would accept your challenge for detecting five good cards from five bad, and if I miss one or two, then perhaps I'll learn something more.

Card altering is certainly a problem but when boxingcardman posted his message, the first thing that came to my mind is how grading has taken away the appreciation for aesthetics. There are gorgeous 8's and 9's and ugly 8's and 9's. What bothers me so much is that many collectors do not seem to care what the card looks like as long as it has the desired grade. I take into consideration at least 8 aspects pertaining to "the look" of a card before I consider buying it. Do the top dogs in the registry do that? Not from what I've observed with some.

One recent glaring example of late is the 1965 Topps N.L. ERA Leaders PSA 10 card with the five noticeable "fish-eyes" that sold for $25K that's in the latest SMR (p. 134).

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Posted By: jeff

Sorry, at twelve dollars per card, I want a numerical grade with my authentication, although I do miss getting a gold star on my best stuff (do kindergarten teachers still do that?).

Kevin, It's my understanding (from a SGC grader) that if trimming is an issue, one has to look at the edges of the card, and that cannot be done when the card is in a slab. I've crossed over a few cards to SGC and when trimming is at all suspected, they've called me on the phone to get permission to crack it out. This must be why SGC doesn't want to cross over cards valued at more than $500.

One last observation: on this board, no one absorbs more cheap shots and unfair criticism than the people who are paid to grade cards. They get some fair criticism too, but all too often collectors don't give them credit for being disinterested professionals.

Oh, and if you have a card that's somewhere between a high-end PSA seven and an average PSA 8, SGC has a grade for you: 7.5

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Posted By: Jerry

Mr.X is losing MrY's business for one reason or another. What options does MrX have to get MrY's Business back. He can lower the grading fee, which is already low and not a enough money to matter. OR He can give higher grades, Ahh Thats the Ticket. Make the collector pay the windfall. Win Win for everybody but the collector/invester.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Among the many problems is that while the practice of grading a card is really an art that takes years of training and experience, I think in the real world it is more assembly line kind of work.

Graders have too many cards to examine in too short a period of time, and the quicker a card is processed, the greater the bottom line. So there has to be some level of sloppiness that occurs.

It is also tedious and repetitive work, and as I've previously pointed out, I don't know what kind of eye fatigue one gets looking at corners and edges eight hours a day, five days a week. That is not a job I would envy.

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Posted By: JimCrqandell

Corey,

According to you, I can only lead the revolt if I am willing to expose myself to mult--hundred thousand dollar losses. I disagree with your whole logic.And i will talk about what I want to talk about--how dare you!

Dan,

Sorry but I do not think its unreasonable for grading companies to be able to detect altered cards consistently and to invest the necessary money so that they can do so.
I am not talking about strong 9s and weak 9s etc. I am talking about microtrimmed/reworked cards that are getting into holders.