LENOX vs Red HINDU....which T206's have them ?

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

In the past few years, Red HINDU "fakes" have been increasing. The scammers have been so good
at re-backing T206's with this rare back, to the degree where Grading Co. have been fooled. The
most notorous example of this, was the Matty (portrait), with a Red HINDU back that was graded
by SGC. Recall that Red HINDU backs only exist in the 350/460 and 460-only series of T206's.

And, as clever as the scammer was to re-back an (initially) undetected fake.....he was NOT smart
enough to realize that this Matty exists only in the 150/350 series.

The recent thread on Red HINDU backs lists approx. 40 confirmed T206 subjects with this back. It
will behoove collectors seeking cards with this back to check out this list.

Most of the Red HINDU's are from the 350/460 series.....30 confirmed, including HOFers Cobb (red
and bat off vars), Johnson (pitching), and CYoung (glove).

From the 460-only series, so far, only 12 of the 48 cards in this series have been confirmed. And,
it has been observed that subjects in this series that are found with the LENOX brand, were not
printed with the Red HINDU brand (and visa-versa). These two backs are mutually exclusive in
the 460-only series. This fact was gleaned from several surveys....and, appears to be a "rule of
thumb" in the method that T206's were produced.

However, there could be two exceptions to this "rule"......Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chi & Bos).

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: MVSNYC

Ted- VERY helpful post/research...

Thanks!
MS

[Archive]

Posted By: Paul S

Ted,

Much appreciation for the heads up and the info on this.

- Paul S

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

I will be listing the T206's in the 460-only Series that are confirmed with LENOX backs.

But before I do here are 3 subjects in this Series that I have no confirmation of either LENOX or Red HINDU.
So, you T206 collectors out there, please help me with this, while you are checking-out your tougher backs.
I am looking for the following with LENOX backs or Red HINDU backs ?

Chance (bat)
Doyle (port)
Needham

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

The following 32 Subjects are in the 460-only Series and have been confirmed with LENOX backs.....
THEREFORE, these cards are not expected to be found with Red HINDU backs.

Abbaticcio (blu slv)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (fol thru)
Bergen (catch)
Bescher (arms up)
Bridwell (cap)
Camnitz (arms up)
Camnitz (arms side)
Chase (trophy)
Frill
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands)
Kleinow (Boston)........exception, Red HINDU exists
Lake (ball-St Louis)
Latham
Marquard (fol thru)
McGraw (port-cap)
Merkle (throw)
Meyers (port)
Murray (port)
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (port)
Schlei (batting)
Schulte (back)
Seymour (port)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tinker (bat on)
Wilste (port-cap)

OK, you T206 collectors....do you have Red HINDU's of any of these cards to disprove this observation ?

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

There is one exception to the LENOX - Red HINDU "mutual exclusivity" rule.....the Red Kleinow (Boston) card.

However, Scot Reader originally classified this subject as being in the 350/460 series. In the 350/460 series
LENOX and Red HINDU's mutually exist. This Kleinow is a "strange" card as it can be found with at least 10
other backs......but, not SOVEREIGN 460.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Email received confirming F. Smith (Chicago & Boston) with LENOX back.

Added to above list.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Ted,
Kleinow and Smith are off the grid when it comes to patterns. I have seen Smith with Lenox, and Kleinow with the Red Hindu, so they are "out of bounds". Talk to you soon Brian

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

Ted
here is a list of Lenox that I own

Abbaticchio blue
Bender no trees
Bescher hands in air
Konetchy glove low
Lake St. Louis no ball (Brown Lenox)
McGraw portrait cap
Meyers portrait
Murray portrait
Oldring bat
Willis throwing

you can check off Bescher/Lenox

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Thanks for your inputs.....they are duly noted.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Pennsylvania Ted

Would you show us your Brown LENOX (Lake) card.

I have never seen the Brown version of this back.

Thanks,

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

I'm also working at a correalation between cards with LENOX and UZIT backs and will post that soon.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

The following 31 Subjects in the 460-only Series have been confirmed with LENOX backs.....
THEREFORE, these cards are not expected to be found with Red HINDU backs.

Abbaticcio (blu slv)
Ball (Cleveland)
Bell (fol thru)
Bergen (catch)
Bescher (arms up)
Bridwell (cap)
Camnitz (arms up)
Camnitz (arms side)
Chase (trophy)
Frill
Herzog (Boston)
Howell (hands)
Lake (ball-St Louis)
Latham
Marquard (fol thru)
McGraw (port-cap)
Merkle (throw)
Meyers (port)
Murray (port)
Oldring (bat)
Overall (blue sky)
Payne
Schaefer (Washington)
Schlei (port)
Schlei (batting)
Schulte (back)
Seymour (port)
Smith (Brooklyn)
Stovall (bat)
Tinker (bat on)
Wilste (port-cap)


OK, you T206 collectors......do you have Red HINDU's of any of these 31 cards to disprove
this observation ?


And, sure enough there are always those pesky exceptions, and in this series there are two:

Kleinow (Boston).....confirmed with both LENOX and Red HINDU

Smith (Chicago & Boston)......so far, confirmed with LENOX back......and, I expect this card
will be also found with a Red HINDU back.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Rivera

black and brown Lenoxhttp://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1183674248.JPG

[Archive]

Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Thanks ole buddy for the nice A - B comparison of the two LENOX backs.

TED Z

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave Hornish

Do the Brown Lenox backs have more of a cream colored look than the blacks or is that just the scans posted here?

[Archive]

Posted By: Scot Reader

Kleinow (Boston) is "formally" a 460-only subject; however, it is "functionally" a 350/460 regular print (RP) subject. Thus, it is not anomalous that Kleinow (Boston) would appear with both Lenox and Red Hindu.

The confusion arises from treating Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Kleinow (Boston) as two distinct T206 subjects. Instead, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) and Kleinow (Boston) are better conceived as ONE bifurcated 350/460 RP subject. In particular, Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) underwent the 350 portion of the 350/460 RP print run while Kleinow (Boston) underwent the 460 portion of the 350/460 RP print run. For this reason, while Kleinow (Boston) will never be found with a 350 back, it shares a common 460 back set with 350/460 RP subjects instead of 460-only subjects.

This is why, unlike other 460-only subjects, you will never see Kleinow (Boston) with Sovereign 460 or Sweet Caporal 460/30. [This is also why, unlike other 350-only subjects, you will never see Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) with an American Beauty 350 with frame, Broad Leaf 350, Carolina Brights or Cycle 350 back.]

The same “form” versus “function” analysis applies to Smith (White Cap) and Smith (Chicago + Boston).

So, Ted’s observation on the mutual exclusivity of Lenox and Red Hindu is likely correct with regard to all “functional” 460-only subjects, that is, all 460-only subjects EXCEPT Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago + Boston). Kleinow (Boston) and Smith (Chicago + Boston) may surface with both.

Scot

[eb548]

Hi Guys, thank you for your incredibly helpful information here. Scot, I use your online grid to track my T206 collecting. I'm looking into a Kleinow Lenox back which Mile High is auctioning off this month. My question is as follows: I can't find any other graded copies of this card on the PSA or SGC population reports. Are there confirmed, ungraded copies of this card out there? I'm trying to determine the actual scarcity of this card as its in rather poor condition. This thread indicates its been confirmed in both Lenox and Red Hindu but I've never seen/heard from a person with the Lenox copy.

Thanks.

[tedzan]

The entire population of T206's is not always reflected in POP reports of graded cards. There are many collections (and sets)
in the hobby that are ungraded. Therefore, I caution anyone placing their total confidence in these reports.

Take Kleinow (Boston) for example, several years ago I saw this card with a Red HINDU back. Furthermore, a Net54 member
has this card (I guess it is not graded). Indeed, it is a legitimate F/B combo.


Regards,
TED Z

[E93]

PSA graded 10,000s of T206s before they began keeping track of backs in their pop report. So there may even be other graded examples where the back is not indicated on the holder or in the report (or there may not be). That said, I don't know they answer to your question.
JimB