Why is SGC getting all the prewar bus now...

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Posted By: Marc S.

any increased scrutiny by the grading companies would only come at the expense of the grading fee. People often seem to not rememeber that we, as collectors, paid more for grading of cards in 1998 than we do today. I don't think either major grading company is going to step forth and say "We are increasing grading fees by 30% in order to institute additional alteration detection processes". In fact, if anything, I think PSA has largely gone the route of removing graders from the process, with most modern cards being graded by a single grader and being checked (after it is already in the holder) by a QC rep.

I fail to see any scenario by which there will be a fundamental change in this aspect, as much as it is needed.

~ms

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Posted By: leon

I would tend to agree with you that the doctors are ahead of most graders.....That is why most vintage collectors, especially on this board, are more prone to go with SGC. I/we feel they stay ahead of the curve more than PSA. Will they make mistakes? Of course they will as they are human. Will they stand behind their product...Yes. I also feel GAI will continue to get better, and be more well received, as Baker gets his hands around some of their previous lackadaisical grading. I am told he is one of the best graders in the hobby and that really needs to roll down hill to his staff.....best regards

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Marc,

Absolutely true--including on the "one-and-out".

Leon-true about Mike--and in addition to him being the best grader in the hobby he is willing to listen and admit he does not know everything.

Kevin--you want to chime in here or would you be disclosing things you don't want to disclose?

Jim

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

I don't think any major auction house will subject themselves to anymore costs, plus the invitation to information they may not want to hear. IMO they think if it's in a legitimate holder then everything has already been done. Funny but if they were to offer work, it would probably be from the dark side (LOL).

Unfortunately, I see a lot of material that has been sold at auction that is holdered and has been altered. Sometimes you can actually see corners that were pressed.

Marc is correct, PSA will not consider hiring anyone just for alteration detection. Since I only live about 20 miles away and was looking for a career change anyways, I actually tried to join their senior team but was rejected at the email stage...oh well.

I consider Mike Baker a very good friend, both in the hobby and personal. I understand has taken the bull by the horns and is now grading most if not all cards himself. He admits one can never know too much and is always willing to sit down and take doctoring lessons. He gets the "full meal deal" how-to's, formulas and step by step break-downs of exactly what to look for...however subtle it may be. IMO he now knows more about card doctoring than most, on top of being known for his grading skills. If I'm not playing the PSA registry game and since I only collect and don't sell, I only trust Baker to personally grade my cards. I promised long ago to never try and get a doctored test card by Global. Actually he waived the white flag years ago (LOL). Almost all my altered cards are there now and have been slabbed as "doctored" and will be traveling with them to show collectors what to look out for. A scan is one thing but seeing it in person is a different story.

Leon is also correct, some card doctors are well past any and all graders. Like he said, everyone will make mistakes but when they become repetitive it becomes a problem.

Sorry but I don't know enough about SGC to make an educated judgment. That's not to say they haven't been tested as well .


Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Jim Crandell

Great stuff Kevin--some of the best stuff I have read on net 54--keep it comin'.

I was going to call Joe today--not bother?

Can we ever hope to get the benefit of your knowledge on net 54 since it appears no grading company is willing to pay for it?

I will start--what in your opinion are the 5 most important things to look for to tell if an already graded card has been altered?

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Posted By: Kevin Saucier

By all means...there is nothing to lose by calling the "Big O."


hummm...Top 5 things to look for in a potentially altered graded card? Most will already know these but here is a quick checklist with some examples of cards that "all are/were (except for the trimmed) graded":

1) Trimming - under a halogen, if you can see the edges, study them carefully with a loupe. Look for signs of trimming such as: uneven wear or cuts, cut marks, stall marks, missing tone, crimped corners, fiber like hairs standing on end from sanding. If the rails are blocking your view, try to look at the exposed ends where the rails end. examples - top is sanded across, bottom is half trimmed to show the look of tone loss.



2) Missed by graders - It will be very difficult to look at the surface under a halogen, since the reflection will be a hindrance. With a loupe cover all areas of lettering and pixilation. Look for tiny amounts of paper loss, areas that appear to be missing or blurred ink (from a stain removal- see bleow), and small surface wrinkles. If a wrinkle is found angle it in the light to see if the the wrinkle is shinny on top (pressed out).



3) Bleaching - Look at color of the card and the white areas (if any). Check to make sure it has a nice tone and not overly bright. If you think it's too white or the colors too bright, go to #2 and look for missing pixel colors or faint stains that the chemicals may have washed away. It may not be noticeable unless scoped. The example below is in a 2 holder.



4) Check the integrity of the slab. Look for small amounts of frosting on/in the plastic. Large areas would be noticeable, we are looking for doctored areas. PSA and SGC slabs can be taken apart and the frost buffed out to look very close to normal. Not to worry...separating, buffing and rejoining all have very specific doctoring tricks.

5) Carefully study areas that may look like card faults, as alterations can be hidden in plain sight and covered up by another alteration. Below are two covered pinholes.



6) As a final check, run it under a black light in a dark area and look for illumination spots. These are left by chemicals, added stock, adhesives, added color and other foreign matter.



There are of course many other areas and things to look for, these are just the basics. For high grade cards trimming and bleaching will be the areas of most concern, since those two things alone can, for example, bring a 6 to an 8...or more. Plus they are the alterations that graders often miss IMO.



btw Jim...do you have an answer to the email I sent you (LOL)?



Kevin Saucier

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Posted By: Anonymous

Kevin,

Thanks a lot--most helpful.

I glanced at it last night but I did not have time--if mow I have to worry about the _____ in addition to the card--yikes!!

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Posted By: James Feagin

Kevin Saucier as in former relief pitcher? Probably asked a million times, but heck, why not?