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  #1  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:18 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Joseph

Given all the recent discussion on "The Card," I think it's time to run the numbers
and see where we stand on this topic. Here's my proposed survey:



I believe the PSA8 T206 "Gretzky" Piedmont Wagner:

1 • … came out of a period cigarette pack as is.

2 • … came out of a period cigarette pack and was later trimmed.

3 • … was cut as is from a period sheet.

4 • … was cut from a period sheet and then later trimmed again.

5 • … is a 1950s reprint


I think I've covered all the major possibilities, but please suggest improvement
here. And then maybe the man came make this happen. I have a feeling it might be
a very popular survey.

(added numbers)

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  #2  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:23 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Jason L

I think...
I have no evidence of any of this, but let me put it this way:

I truly don't believe that that card is the same thing that everyone here collects.

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  #3  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:23 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: barrysloate

I'll say 3 or 4. It was almost certainly cut from a sheet originally, but on what basis can we determine it was cut again? That is just speculation.

Thanks Mark, that's what I meant.

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  #4  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:29 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Mark Lutz

If Barry means 3 or 4, I agree with him.

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  #5  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:40 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Hal Lewis

3 or 4

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  #6  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:47 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: JK

3 or 4

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  #7  
Old 06-02-2007, 11:54 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Steve Murray

4

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  #8  
Old 06-02-2007, 12:01 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: leon

3 and most likely 4

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  #9  
Old 06-02-2007, 12:40 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Andrew

3 or 4

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  #10  
Old 06-02-2007, 03:52 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Paul

If everyone is right, what an incredible tragedy that the only surviving T206 sheet was cut up. Do you think Topps or Upper Deck may have been involved?

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  #11  
Old 06-02-2007, 04:06 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Joseph

Paul: that's another of the great ironies of the book, "The Card." If Mastro knew there existed
a never-before-seen uncut T206 sheet from which the cards were cut, the collector's part of his heart must have broken. And all these years later, he still can't talk about it, lest he admit "the problem."



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  #12  
Old 06-02-2007, 04:58 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Cobby33

4, although 5 would be awfully interesting.

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  #13  
Old 06-02-2007, 05:20 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: dennis

3

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  #14  
Old 06-02-2007, 05:24 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Dave S

Being that I haven't held the card, being the sceptic that I am...I'll be the first..
"5"...

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  #15  
Old 06-02-2007, 06:02 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: joe brennan

I believe it's real, was cut from a printers sheet in 1909, was inserted in a pack. Put away in pristine condition and was found in it's original condition and graded by PSA just the way it came off the press in 1909.

And I have some land that I am looking to sell.

5

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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  #16  
Old 06-02-2007, 06:11 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Scott Elkins

Bet that was a surprise to most on here!

BTW - are we counting all these multiple votes as 1/2 votes? I know several have voted 3 or 4 - is that a half vote for each number. Also, it seems Cobby mentioned 5 along with 4 - so, I guess I am the 3 1/2 vote for 5!

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  #17  
Old 06-02-2007, 07:10 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: ErlandStevens

Somebody has to be the lemming. I'll say 1. I mean if it weren't real, then it wouldn't be slabbed!

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  #18  
Old 06-02-2007, 07:57 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Rand

the guy that bought the SGC 96 Nagurski for $240,000 had it crossed to a psa 9. psa actually put in a full page ad in the June & July SMR to show off their new prize, wouldnt it be great if the "Card" was sent to SGC for their opinion? Gai would give it a 9 "1rst graded" so there is no challenge on that one. oh..wait..PRO that would work. a PRO 9 Wagner. where are those guys from the TV article?

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  #19  
Old 06-02-2007, 08:40 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: joe brenan

Somebody has to be the lemming. I'll say 1. I mean if it weren't real, then it wouldn't be slabbed!


E-mail me about that land I have.

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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  #20  
Old 06-02-2007, 08:58 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: David F

Well....if it's not real, and it were to ever land on the property of SGC, there is no way in hell that SGC would ever do anything other than grade the card in an equivalent crossover grade. Just no way. I know many people's opinions here are that SGC can do no wrong...but bringing down the highest dollar, most well known card in the industry would not be the move SGC would make...even if they actually found the card to be trimmed by their own experts....it would make it into an SGC 88 or heck even a 92 slab.

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  #21  
Old 06-02-2007, 10:59 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: peter ullman

most likely 4

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  #22  
Old 06-03-2007, 12:19 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: DJ

I would say 4 or 5 as well.

We should get those guys from the HBO Special to help us here...with all their binders full of data.

DJ

P.S Just saw the Lionel Carter video. Can you believe that Carter didn't want to pay $150 to fill his T206 set? Amazing.
Two thumbs up!

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  #23  
Old 06-03-2007, 08:12 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: David Vargha

I wanted to be the first to vote for "6".

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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  #24  
Old 06-03-2007, 02:03 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: MikeU

"Well....if it's not real, and it were to ever land on the property of SGC, there is no way in hell that SGC would ever do anything other than grade the card in an equivalent crossover grade. Just no way. I know many people's opinions here are that SGC can do no wrong...but bringing down the highest dollar, most well known card in the industry would not be the move SGC would make...even if they actually found the card to be trimmed by their own experts....it would make it into an SGC 88 or heck even a 92 slab."

I completely disagree that SGC would grade the card anything but Authentic or note as hand cut with a grade. If they did cross the card over straight, I would never buy or submit another SGC card in my life.

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  #25  
Old 06-03-2007, 02:12 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: MikeU

In line with Ashphalt Man's statement, I am willing to personally contribute $1,000 to a pot that NET54/Leon or some other party could collect from various members to give to SCP/West Coast Owner to submit "The Card" to SGC for crossover reveiw. This is contigent on the SGC results being published.

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  #26  
Old 06-03-2007, 03:17 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Dave F

Mike...I really believe IMO your fooling yourself if you think SGC would grade that card as authentic after the whole history behind it and the nation recognition it has receieved...just plain no way.

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  #27  
Old 06-03-2007, 03:54 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: MikeU

"Mike...I really believe IMO your fooling yourself if you think SGC would grade that card as authentic after the whole history behind it and the nation recognition it has receieved...just plain no way."

"IMO your fooling yourself if you think SGC would grade that card as authentic"

IMHO you do not understand the full breadth and circumstance of the situation.

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  #28  
Old 06-03-2007, 04:00 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Dylan

4,
edited to add that I would be thrilled to hear what sgc's opinion is on the Wagner, as they probably have the same opinion as the rest of us. And Dave i think you are wrong. While PSA drummed up publicity for grading it, sgc could drum up positive publicity for grading it authentic, or hand cut. It would send a statement to the hobby saying we are THE toughest most honest grader in the industry. And we also can't be bought off. I think most collectors would be thrilled and congratulate SGC for giving an honest assesment of the card instead of the hoax that just goes on and on and on.

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  #29  
Old 06-03-2007, 04:01 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: shelly jaffe

Why use SCG. Why not get the top five people in the field of t206 and have them look at the card. If three out of five say its good or visa versa thats it. I do have one question. Is it possible to grade it without takeing it out of the slab?

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  #30  
Old 06-03-2007, 04:03 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: barrysloate

How could we get five people to look at it? Does anybody even know who owns it?

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  #31  
Old 06-03-2007, 04:07 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: MikeU



"How could we get five people to look at it? Does anybody even know who owns it?"

David Kohler/SCP own a piece of it. I am sure they could find it.

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  #32  
Old 06-03-2007, 04:09 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Brian Weisner


Hi Barry,
Set it up at Lugers and I'll fly up for a steak(no soup). I think we could have 10 board members take care of this in a few hours. Be well Brian

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  #33  
Old 06-03-2007, 04:16 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: barrysloate

Something tells me we won't be getting a hold of this card to look at it...but Luger's sounds like a great idea.

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  #34  
Old 06-03-2007, 04:25 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: shelly jaffe

Why does everything have to be on the East Coast. How about Spago's. If no one even looks at the card we can at least look at the women.
Barry can a card be graded without takeing it out of the slab. Size and edges being the most important?

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  #35  
Old 06-03-2007, 05:05 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: barrysloate

It can be informally graded in a slab; that is, a professional grader can look at it and review it, or a hobby expert can render a realistic opinion. But you can't get that all important new label without the card first being removed from its holder.

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  #36  
Old 06-03-2007, 05:29 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: shelly jaffe

What a shame. I really thought that if you could measure and see the trimmed edges it would answere a lot of questions.

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  #37  
Old 06-03-2007, 06:05 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: barrysloate

They can only give an unofficial opinion if it's slabbed. They are supposed to study a card under proper lighting and magnification, and the plastic would prevent it. But I bet they could tell you at a quick glance if it were trimmed or not.

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  #38  
Old 06-03-2007, 06:11 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Max Weder

Since the points and counterpoints are driving me in circles, I choose

3.141592653589793

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  #39  
Old 06-03-2007, 07:02 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Anonymous

3.14159 26535 89793 23846 26433 83279 50288 41971 69399 37510

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  #40  
Old 06-03-2007, 08:15 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Chuck Ross

3.14159 Traynor

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  #41  
Old 06-03-2007, 09:56 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: boxingcardman

I don't care. I really don't. None of my doggies are in the fight.

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  #42  
Old 06-04-2007, 05:28 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: barrysloate

Chuck- that's a good one, I like that!

There was a young man profiled on 60 Minutes recently who memorized pi 12,000 numbers deep, and recited it to an audience of reporters, and didn't miss one digit. He just went as far as he could and said, "That's it" and stopped.

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  #43  
Old 06-04-2007, 01:29 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Rain Man

Chicks dig guys who can recite pi to 12,000 places.

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  #44  
Old 06-04-2007, 04:30 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Barry if a quick glance in the slab were enough, wouldn't we have more opinions from people who have seen the card when it has been on display? Or has it been displayed in such a fashion that you can't get a good look?

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  #45  
Old 06-04-2007, 05:43 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: J Levine

I have told this story a few times and it can be found with a search here on net54. I have held the card as have other board members and lurkers I am sure. I vote for 3 and 4. Certainly 4.

Joshua

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  #46  
Old 06-04-2007, 06:47 PM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Jimmy

I feel that if the card was graded today with the standards SGC and PSA use it would be a lower grade, we have come along way with understanding graded cards over the years. I think it is a real card, but we will never know if the card was ever trimmed, but it is a possibility that the card came from an old sheet and was cut later once it was discovered

Jimmy

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  #47  
Old 06-05-2007, 08:52 AM
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Default Survey Proposal: What do we really think about the PSA8 Piedmont Wagner
Posted By: Fred C

I'll go with 4

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