PSA "getting to big for their britches?"

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Posted By: rand

Hello, I am brand new to this forum. I really enjoy the decades of experience and the seriousness of the discussions. I would really like to get something off my chest with PSA. Who do they really think they are? Don't they just grade cards, i mean they aren't curing diseases right? The discussion of customer service from another writer about SGC's service really got me thinking. I have heard so many stories about collectors, or should i say "customers" trying to get cards graded and getting slapped in the face from PSA. Why is it beneath them to give any card from ANY grading service a honest evaluation? So what if the card is in an SCD, PRO, GAI, ect...if the card is trimmed then let the "Customer" know what/where the trimming is, don't just flip it off. I find it really insulting, i only collect 33 goudeys...it disturbs me the inconsistency of Every grade level. The small guys are the ones that loose out. The large submitters get the grade bumps, the small guys do not get the benefit of the doubt. Then when the small guy sends in another graders card, its even worse. I was in the restaurant business for 14+ years, Service is everything, isn't PSA in the "Service" business?
I find it amazing and SUPER for the hobby that SGC is getting a tremendous amount of respect from the major auction houses. 3 years ago, PSA dominated, now all the important stuff is coming out of SGC. The Registry is the only reason PSA is reguarded so strongly, everyone is so competitive.
I think PSA is missing on all cylinders, holders are ugly, they are expensive, poor customer service, inconsistant, and have forgotten the golden rule...take care of your custmers....ANY THOUGHTS?????

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Posted By: Cobby33

My beef with PSA is that when I pay for 5 day service, it ends up being about 15 day service, since the 5 days begins to run when they "log" the order, typically a week (or more) after sending it in. They reserve the right, of course, to dramatically extend this period if there is not strict compliance with their rather draconian guidelines.

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Posted By: rand

5 day service is EXPENSIVE!! They have been around a long time, what is the problem with getting the job done?! They are NOT a well run company, period! Its baseball cards, not custom cabinets, then the attitude when a "Customer" complains.

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Posted By: Steve f

Agreed, the 5-Day special is a crock and CU is actively seeking graders. But hang in there, don't lose it and turn that frown upside down randy... 'Cuz I hear your sub is at stage three and you're far ahead of me.

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Posted By: rand

Psa is a monopoly, and they treat it as such (due to the Registry). I have spoken to many collectors and dealers...its just a big game. They know the choices are limited so you have to continue to feed them cards. Funny thing is, their egos are truly about the holder and not the card. I think SGC is coming on very aggressively, PSA should be disgusted with themselves for not having so many important cards not in their holders. After 10+ years of doing the same thing, you'd think they could get something done professionally at all levels....NOPE. I read an article in SMR a few months ago featuring the lead graders, they spoke about how proud they are and how great their jobs are...time to look in the mirror.

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Posted By: leon

You need to email me. There is a forum rule about posting these kind of statements and remaining anonymous. I hope you continue to participate and you sound like a true collector....but everyone has to follow the rules. I am sure you don't work for a PSA competitor but that is the gist of the reason for the rule....thanks much....moderator dude (leon)

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Posted By: Calleocho

PSA gets its fair amount of critisism around here, thats not a secret.

You have to look at the bigger picture though...They are a huge company, you are going to get different levels of service sometimes due to heavy volume, amount of employess etc.

Psa spends tons of money trying to come up with new ways to improve our collecting experience

from the registry, to psa/dna, ticket grading , pack grading, large holders etc.

PSA is an innovative company that has no real competition in the market

SGC is a niche grading co ....its major revenue comes from pre war cards.

How many cards can they possibly grade?

1 million?

that amount is barely a years worth for PSA.

PSA is a the dominant card grader of the industry.

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Posted By: JK

Calleocho,

Sorry, but SGC is much more than a niche grading company. The only reason they dont have the volume that psa has is the set registry. They are also far more innovative imo opinion than psa. Their grading scale is more precise, their holder's are more innovative, etc.

You're going to have to do better than recycling the same old arguments about psa. In fact, its actually pretty funny because your post is remarkably similar to another post supporting psa in a thread that I recall from last year - same exact argument that psa was innovative and sgc was nothing more than a grader of prewar cards. I think Ive seen your login before, so Im sure this isnt the caes, but its almost as if you've been given a script by psa.

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Posted By: Anonymous

JK

If i wanted to put together a SGC graded 1972 set and my only source of supply is ebay ....how long would that take me?

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Posted By: boxingcardman

SGC has established itself as a prewar card expert service. Asking about a 1972 Topps set in SGC holders is outside that niche. Makes as much sense as my asking how long it would take me to assemble a PSA graded set of Exhibit boxing cards. Answer: forever, because PSA doesn't grade Exhibit boxing cards, according to their submittal guidelines. If you are looking for a slabbed set from the 1970s, PSA is your place.

I think it is perfectly valid to ask for better customer service from a company you deal with and, frankly, I stopped sending cards to PSA years ago shortly after SGC came out because I could not stand being treated like gum on PSA's shoes for my troubles.

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Posted By: calleocho

how many people collect boxing cards versus mainstream topps issues?

I dont have a problem with SGC, I collect cuban born players and most of my luques, marsans etc are in SGC slabs.

However i dont have a single SGC Miñoso or Pascual...and for every pre war card there are 10 or more 50-60's cards that i need for my set.

So unless SGC manages to break out from their niche of pre war cards ...i honestly wonder how much longer they will have a viable business model.

Both grading companies make the same amount wether they are grading a pre war card or a vintage 50's topps card.

But the supply of pre war cards diminishes everyday while there is no shortage of the rest.

The key would be for SGC to develop such a strong brand in their niche that they could charge more to grade pre war cards.

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Posted By: Jason L

it could take as little as 1 purchase and 1 submission.
Buy a 1972 complete set on Ebay
then submit it to SGC for grading, and you would have an SGC-graded set of 1972 Topps...

right?

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Posted By: leon

Thanks for the polite email and understanding. Welcome to our board....take care

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Posted By: James Feagin

The ONLY thing I don't like about SGC is their crossover policy. The best way to get nice cards in their holders is to allow cards worth more than $500 to be submitted for crossover.

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Posted By: rand

as i mentioned in my original post, i was in the restaurant business for 14+ years. If a customer's dinner was overcooked, the last thing they wanted to hear was 10 excuses, just fix the problem, make good to the customer and create good will.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Rand, I totally agree with your take about customer service and live by that credo every day in my work. But, to play devil's advocate, your restaurant analogy might not be a good one in this case because consumers will always have tons of restaurants from which to choose. Card collectors choosing a grading service don't have but 2-4 options -- depending on who you talk to -- so there's little reason for PSA to focus on customer service. And to your point, I'm sure PSA is aware of this very fact.

For the record, in nearly 30 years of collecting, I've made one submission to a grading company, so I'm neither a PSA or SGC guy.

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Posted By: rand

Exactly! they know it. a monopoly attitude. I believe its about doing the right thing. Sending cards in for grading is an extra expense in a tough economic market, if i shell out $100 a month for grading or crossovers, its a lot of money to me, and i work hard to find that extra 100. The last thing i need is the constant disappointment on having my money not appreciated or getting the service i am trying to pay for. Why can't a huge company like PSA deliver what they charge for?

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Posted By: Neal Kane

located in Parsippany NJ by chance?

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Posted By: Cat

Rand:

Although I think you are dead-on as far as their performance flaws, I don't think it is a "to big for their britches" issue. I think they have two basic problems: 1) they have a terrible sense of customer service, 2) they are fairly clueless regarding the market we represent (pre-war vintage).

Collector's Universe patches together a fairly decent revenue stream, but they seem to be all over the map as to what they are all about. Minimally, they grade diamonds, stamps, coins, and cards (more stuff too I believe). That's fairly diverse if you ask me. To be that diverse and be successful, you have to have strong leadership. I don't know Tony Orlando but he seems to have a high and mighty attitude. I have heard more than one person say that if you say something disparaging on the CU board, you get banned. Why not fix issues rather than bury one's head in the sand?

I do no beleive that they receive any direct revenue from the Set Registry. I believe their revenue is from grading cards, membership fees, and selling adverts. in the SMR. The cards portion of their business model seems very fragile. The SMR is pointless in my opinion. Their last quarterly indicated that revenue from card grading was down. Without these two purposes...wanting them to grade your cards or finding a purpose for the SMR...then why subscribe to their annual membership? VERY FRAGILE BUSINESS MODEL. Maybe they are spending their time scuffling rather than on customer service.

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Posted By: rand

Neal, if you are happy with poor service and inconsistant grades, then it seems PSA is the place for you. This has been 100% objective on my part and you can read the responses. This Topic was set up to stir some strong opinions. I feel anyone who isnt a millionaire has to struggle with extra money to fund their collections. the amount of money spent on grading takes away from a nice card or two. so why not get the same experience of joy when getting a card graded as it was to buy it? do you not agree?

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Posted By: Neal Kane

Not so sure Rand, as rating customer service and consistent grading is always a matter of personal opinion very subjective. I have not had a submission to either company in awhile, but reading various message boards in the past few weeks/months shows me where some complaints were.
I have always felt that anyone who starts a thread like this usually has some type of agenda ...

PSA is fine by me, both in grading and in customer service. They overgrade cards as much as they undergrade, much like SGC. Both companies have their plusses and minuses. As far as PSA acting corporate-like, good. I'd rather have it that way.

I like both companies, and I wish more SGC cards were available to purchase. One gets tired of seeing T206 Tannehill SGC after T206 Tannehill SGC (sp) on eBay when I am looking for something 50's stuff.

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Posted By: James Feagin

"They overgrade cards as much as they undergrade, much like SGC."

You had me until the statement. Having seen tens of thousands of both types of cards, PSA is becoming more and more like GAI. SGC is far more consistent.

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Posted By: rand

Neal, i have no agenda. facts are facts, people pay for 5 day turn-around, takes 2+ weeks, yet still pay for 5 days. Cards are undergraded, overgraded, or not graded at all...still costs money for the service or lack there of. It boils down to a simple point, deliver what you charge for.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Rand, I happen to like both card companies equally; each have their good and bad points. However, to harp on PSA's purported failure to deliver on 5 day service without acknowledging that SGC is famous for failing to deliver in the same manner is a bit misleading.

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Posted By: Calleocho

Thats funny ...PSA is the biggest grading company with the biggest revenue and its part of a larger company that has a well diversified portfolio of other money making enterprises...


And yet you think their system is fragile?

How about SGC or GAI?

you can either agree with their grading or not ...but their business model is very profitable.

Also BY psa being part of CU which is a public company it adds a layer of scrutiny that is not there when it comes to SGC or GAI.

Also PSA sold the SMR magazine, and yes they do make lots of money of the registry....its basically the driving force behind grading those late 70's and early 80's topps sets which have at least 500 commons which almost no one would have thought of grading before there was a registry.

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Posted By: Steve f

Okay, If noone is going to do it... It's spelled breeches. Okay, I'm better now.

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Posted By: Neal Kane

I have not submitted to either company in a few months, so I cannot comment. If PSA is two weeks late on a 5 day submission, do you still get vouchers for that level of service? If so, that is a win win situation.

James, I buy graded cards only. In the past year, I have started buying more and more SGC cards due to the influence of some jerk in Marlton NJ - and I like them more and more. I just picked up a beautiful 64 Brooks Robinson 88 - great seller too The PSA cards I have seem right on the money for grades. I don't like many cards that are in PSA holders, and I don't like the centering for certain cards that are in SGC holders. I am a picky low budget collector - a 200 dollar card is a big one for me - so I try to find the best ones for that grade. The ones I end up with generally spot on gradewise.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Personally, I don't have an axe to grind with any of the grading companies. Each have their fortes and their drawbacks. With regard to timelieness- GAI consistently sends me back submissions before deadlines. SGC is generally right on time and as I pointed out above, PSA consistently falls way short of their "promised" return times. I think the latter is a pretty objective statement.

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Posted By: James Gallo

Let me start off by saying I have submitted cards to all of the following.

SGC
PSA
GAI
Beckett.

I have only submitted modern stuff to Beckett. GAI got one submission and that was the end for them.

I will only send vintage cards to SGC or PSA. That being said, I have sent post war cards to SGC and at times I have gotten a higher price then the same card in a PSA holder. Ie I might get $150 for a 75 Brett Rookie as a SGC 88 when a PSA 8 goes for closer to $100. This has happened several times.

As for submission time lines

Beckett has never been late and have always shipped on the date the order was due.

GAI was weeks late and that only added to some other problems enabled me to cut them off cleanly.

SGC I have never had an order be late and often they are a day or two ahead. I have not sent them much in the last month or so, but they got me my cards back very quickly after the last Reading show.

PSA, well I generally do bulk submissions so there is no firm timeline and therefore I just sit and wait. I did send in a small group of cards under the 10 day, and they were on time.

Now here is my beef and bear with me.

I sent in a 1993 Upper Deck Jeter rookie in a bulk submission, I pulled this card out of a sealed set myself. The card came back as eviden trim, which I knew was wrong. I sent it in for a review and it came back a PSA 9 MINT. That is just insane, wrong and should just NEVER happen.

I got a voucher for 1 card to make up for my trouble after several emails.

I also sent in 4 modern cards, 1 was a 10 and 3 9s. I have no doubt that all 4 are at least a grade two high. I got them back and never had a phone call or an email out them. God knows if and who even looked at them.

I called the specifc customer sevice rep and he was very good about returning my phone call. He sent me a voucher for 4 cards.

I sent in an E-90-1 and it came back in a T-206 holder with the wrong name and obviously wrong set on the flip.

What this tells me is a few things.

1) SGC has MUCH better customer service then PSA hands down. If I didn't have a specific extention and name at PSA then I would have been sent all over the place.
I greatly like the fact that at SGC I know the people and I see them at shows, and they know me.

2) I know that PSA makes a lot of mistakes, but I do think it is relation to the number of cards it grades.

As a result it seems simple to me, if they are grading so many cards, that mistakes are increasing then you need to either hire more graders and or have better quality control.

I think PSA's biggest problem IS the quality control and that is something I really don't see them doing much to fix.

They pretty much will throw free grading at you and that is supposed to fix the problem.

When I talke to the rep about the 4 overgraded cards, I specifically said that it wasn't about the value of the cards since 3/4 were only worth about $10 each, but that I was buying the card first and the holder second.

I will always stand by this as anytime I have bought a card for the holder I have gotten burned badly.

I have never crossed a vintage card into a PSA holder. I have bought GAI and PSA stuff that has gotten downgraded 1-2 points when crossed to SGC.

I feel that SGC is stricter so I am ok with a .5 to even 1 grade drop from PSA, but everything I have taken from GAI has gotten killed.

AS for buying 70's card is SGC holders, I don't see it as too much of a problem as I am working on a 1975 Topps regular set and a mini. There are enough of these cards around raw in high grade to buy, and I have found there to be some in SGC holders.

IMO the only reason you see more PSA cards from that era is that they have been around longer.

As I said at the top I see SGC prices from pre-war till the late 1970s getting closer to PSA levels all the time. I expect this trend to continue and I know SGC will start giving higher prices on pre-war cards.

Rant done.

James G



Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.