Let's Be Frank, Actually My Name Is Peter...

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Posted By: Cobby33

200!

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Let me ponder the imponderable.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

A collector and a speculator?

A Wall Street Journal card speculator?

A sicko Lipset encyclopedia card collector?

Both in the same body?

Hmmn?

Ya know Peter, I think you may have something there.
This may be before your time, but a few years back, there were a couple of movies about this sort of thing.
One was called "The Three Faces of Eve, and the other one was called Sybil.
It was about multiple personalities.
The Sybil one, was about 5, 6 or possibly more personalities.

I am finding your claim of both being a speculator, and a collector very disappointing.
Disappointing in the fact, that in comparison to Eve and Sybil, ... you're an underachiever.
Then again, ..... you're a speculator.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

And Joe doesn't take it seriously when I say the collector is the foundation for the market. Let's put it this way as an investor I feel much more comfortable knowing that there's a group of serious collectors out there that will buy when the market is dropping like a rock. I'm comforted by the fact that the market would eventually turn around.

Are you saying that we are the backbone of the hobby?

Frank

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Frank, I waited all day for someone to say that. It was particularly painful to stifle myself for all these hours.

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Posted By: peter chao

Frank, Joe

Absolutely, you guys are "the backbone of the hobby."

But you guys need to give the investor speculator a little credit, they are bringing new money and new blood into the hobby.

The way I see it is I earned my money the old fashion way and I should be able to collect, invest, or speculate the way I want. Just like your free to collect the way you want. And I do not apologize for energizing the market and putting money in the pockets of the collectors if they wish to sell their cards.

Peter

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Posted By: leon

armpits....ARMPIT COLLECTORS UNITE !!

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Posted By: RC McKenzie

Found this e98 red background hofer Evers on the pinksheets for $34. Provenance: 'Sara'...

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

How dare you.

We're talking MARK et here.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Peter- if you wish to collect baseball cards with an eye on their investment potential, I don't think you have to apologize to anyone.

"Investment" is treated as a taboo word around here but the fact is cards have appreciated tremendously over the past five years. If you make some money and have some fun with it along the way, it's nobody's business.

There have been numerous people on the board who have said they would love to see the market collapse so that they could buy many of the cards they can't afford today. I am one of those who feel a market collapse would be a bad thing. Nothing wrong with a little stability and less volatility, but a collapse could put me out of business and add tremendous stress to the lives of many collectors.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

We're remodeling our kitchen. We're doing it because our existing kitchen needs updating - we don't like the cabinets, the tile, or the appliances, and would like to update them all. We're also utilizing the space better, getting more effective cabinetry, creating a work area for the kids to do homework, and getting a better oven. We'd like the kitchen to be a unique area, easier to work in than it is now, and better capable of meeting the needs of our family.

It is costing a lot of money.

We're not doing it because it will increase the value of our home, as we have no intention of selling our home any time soon. However, it's nice to know that some portion of the investment that we're making WILL increase the home's value, and that we'll be able to capture some of the dollars we put into it in the event that we decide to sell the house someday.

So. We're doing it because we'd really like to have a more contemporary kitchen. But there is money involved, and so we're trying to be smart about the expense, so that when the time comes, we've added to the value of our home.

Is that bad?

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's not only not bad (double negative), but it's actually the smart thing to do.

I'm sure as a family you spend a lot of time in the kitchen, so you will be able to enjoy the finished product. And it is reasonable to assume that one day you will in fact sell the house, so you've made a good investment.

To follow the comparison, why can't a baseball card be a collectable, an antiquity, a piece of baseball history, and an investment all at the same time?

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

That's what I'm saying, Barry, exactly.

The other day I replaced my SGC 40 T206 Eddie Collins (Piedmont) with an SGC 40 Eddie Collins (EPDG). I want as many T206 HOFers with tougher backs as possible, and so I "upgraded" within the grade.

I also just replaced my PSA 6 1938 Goudey Jimmy Foxx with a nicer PSA 5, because to me, the 5 is a nicer-looking card.

Both of those purchases cost real money - a few hundred dollars in total. As much as I'd like to pay for my baseball cards in toothpicks, sellers don't like receiving toothpicks. So I have to pay money. If I'm going to be conscious of how much I spend, but still acquire the cards I'd like to add to my collection, I need to consider what other people would pay for them as well.

So when I go out an spend $200 on an E121 HOFer because it has a Henry Johnson back, I've got to know that I'm not the only knucklehead in the hobby who's willing to pay that much money for the card. Because if the engine falls out of my car and I need to come up with some quick cash without selling a kidney, I could sell my H-J backs to someone.

I just don't understand why that's a bad thing.

-Al

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Posted By: peter chao

Guys,

We pretty much agree that the money part is not necessarily bad. Also, there are some who blame the investors and speculators for the trimmed and colored cards.

That is also unfair. Investors and speculators may take a gamble on the market but they want to get their money fairly.

Thieves and counterfeiters are simply attracted by the money. They don't care beans about the hobby and kids. They don't care about who they screw, they probably think counterfeiting bills are too dangerous because the feds will go after them. So they counterfeit baseball cards.

The hobby needs to work together to stop counterfeiters. We need to work with the graders and the law enforcement people.

Peter

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Al,

It's not bad at all. There seems to be an air of superiority among some collectors here who think that if you want your cards to appreciate in value, then you're not a "true collector." That couldn't be farther from the truth.

I don't like speaking for other people, but I do like collecting and love cards. It's a great escape. But I'd be fooling myself if I said I do not care whether my cards increase in value in the future. That's just plain silly. It doesn't make me any less of a collector than those who hold disdain for slabbing (we get it, you guys don't like it, ok!).
And why is there a negative connotation to being a speculator? I speculate on alot of different areas, but I'm still a collector. It's what each person does that makes them happy and enjoy this hobby that matters. Trying to say one person is a "true" collector is, well, kinda childish, and I thought we left that on the playground. But then again, I could be wrong.

Speculators, investors, collectors, armpits and backbones, unite!

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

A lot of the trimmed cards in the prewar arena have nothing whatsoever to do with investors and deception.

A lot of trimmed T and E cards were trimmed in the 70s and 80s by collectors who just wanted their cards to fit better in the plastic sheets that were available at the time. Deception had nothing to do with it. It was done for aesthetic, storage and display reasons. Unfortunately we're living with it now, because if we want untrimmed cards in our collection, we have to be vigilant about identifying cards that were trimmed down 30 years ago, and are often tougher to detect than cards that were trimmed two weeks ago by a card doctor looking to get a T206 into an 8 holder.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

I think what makes the baseball card market so fluid is it is so many things at the same time. There are many aspects of it that draw people in, and not everyone collects cards for the same reason.

So what (with deference to Miles Davis).

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I prefer the sax to the trumpet, so I'll defer to Coltrane and Rollins. It's about time we started talking about music in this thread.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

John Coltrane plays with Miles on "So What." You can check it out on youtube. Just type in "Miles Davis So What" and you will see Miles and Trane trading off solos. Must see video!!

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Here is the basic riff. It is the two chords at the end of each phrase that, when played on the piano or by harmonized brass instruments, are suggestive of a person saying the words "so what," perhaps in a slightly derogatory manner:

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Posted By: barrysloate

Eric- I can't read music so I am going to have to take your word on this one. "Kind of Blue" is the greatest selling jazz album in history and it was done I believe in one take without rehearsal! Musicians were just given a general idea of what to play and the rest was improvised on the spot.

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Posted By: peter chao

It would be great to have Stevie Wonder chime in on the piano.

Peter

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Stevie would have done a good job, although jazz wasn't really his bag. The piano on the original recording was played by the late great Bill Evans.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bill Evans also wrote the wonderful liner notes for the album, about Japanese art on parchment, comparing it to the process of musical innovation.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Can't talk about jazz piano - even just three posts - without mentioning Monk.

Monk.

-Al

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Posted By: barrysloate

Monk may be my favorite of all, both for his eccentric personality and style of playing. He was a troubled genius who stopped playing in the last decade of his life for no other reason than he no longer wished to play.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Some threads here definitely require Phillip Glass

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

The sounds should have high jacked this thread right after it was started.

I can't play a note of music, but I've always loved the sounds.
In one of my former lives, I had the great pleasure and honor to be involved with two Duke Ellington productions.
His first "Sacred Concert" (Dec. 26 1965) in NYC, and his "Sold on Soul" AKA a "Salute to the Duke" (Feb. 23 1970) at Madison Square Garden.
The Salute to the Duke gig, would have blown your mind.

The master of ceremonies: Sammy Davis Junior.
Louis Armstrong.
Richie Havens.
Peggy Lee.
Les MC Cann Trio.
The Dance Theatre of Harlem.
Irene Cara.
Leslie Uggams.
Stevie Wonder.
Ray Charles.
Joyce Bryant.
The Modern Jazz Quartet.
Roberta Flack.
The Clark Terry Orchestra.
B B King.
Jimmy Rushing.
Eubie Blake.
Noble Sissle.
Joya Sherril, with the Duke Ellington band.

This is not from memory, ... I cheated.
I'm looking at my old work sheet.

Needless to say, Mad. Sqr. Garden was the place to be that night.

Takin off now, gotta catch the "A" train.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

The Constitution, jazz, and baseball.

-Al

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Posted By: peter chao

I love the sound of jazz as the sun goes down. Even hard-core collectors need to kick back once in a while.

Peter

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Posted By: Eric Brehm

Yes, jazz music, like baseball, is something America can claim as its very own invention. A wedding of African musical sense and European instruments that could only have happened here.

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Posted By: peter chao

Okay Guys,

I'm sure that a forum member would know this. Which year did they first play, "Take Me Out to The Ballgame." I have no idea that's why I'm asking you guys.

Peter

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Posted By: Dave F

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/poetry/po_stmo.shtml

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Posted By: peter chao

Dave,

1908. Thanks.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Just trying to help Peter.

Lyle ... Where are you?

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Posted By: peter chao

You Cub haters out there, it's all a conspiracy. Well...I'll have you know the Cubs are only 1 1/2 games out of first place.

Peter

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Just tryin to help Peter.

Lyle, ... whhhere the hell are you?