T206 Red Cobb....Still Scratching My Head

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Posted By: Dave Snyder

I have about 150 SGC graded cards - mostly 30's 40's and 50's. When this Cobby came back as a 30, I was completely baffled. I have some 50's that don't look this good. I have never cracked a card out and resubmitted (or crossed over for that matter) but I'm seriously considering that here.

Am I missing something?

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Posted By: Bill K

Whew.....that's a REALLY nice looking card. Based on the scans I think you should resubmit. It's clean, well centered, and very much a VG/EX card IMO.

Either way, great card no matter the grade!

Bill

My personal collection - http://s47.photobucket.com/albums/f176/fkm_bky/

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Posted By: RayB

That cards a 50 all day long and a certain PSA 4.
Crack it.
RayB

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Posted By: george gogol

Awesome card. I would pick it up in a heart beat. If you only do SGC I would resubmit it for review, or just crack it and enjoy the PSA 4. Good Luck!

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Posted By: Anonymous

somebody at SGC should have their eyes examined...!!! that is VG/EX if it's anything

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Posted By: Dave Snyder

........so I'm not losing my mind then.

I prefer SGC, but wouldn't mind having this in a PSA holder to go with my green Cobb. What are the rules with resubmission to SGC if I go that route - they can only bump it up one grade, right?

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Posted By: Jason L

any spider wrinkles or anything? maybe top right corner?
tough to tell what could set it at a 30!!.....

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Posted By: Jerry

Dave
Here's my 4 for comparision and I will say it's no better than yours. Unless yours has a wrinkle, Mine is crease free.

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Posted By: George Dreher

that card looks like a PSA-5. Someone dropped the ball unless there is a surface defect we can't see.

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Posted By: Dave Snyder

......that I can see. There might be the smallest spider wrinkle (top/center where the white border meets the red background) but we're talking like an eigth of an inch. What kills me is that I have many, many SGC 30's that have multiple creases running through the card.......visible from 10 feet away. Not the case with this one.

Jerry - I'd say your Cobb and mine are right on par.......

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Posted By: Dave Snyder

"that card looks like a PSA-5. Someone dropped the ball unless there is a surface defect we can't see."

How do you drop the ball with any Cobb? Is it possible they just over-scrutinized it? I mean, if you're a grader at SGC, aren't you spending a little more time with this than a T206 common in the same shape? That said, I would think this card would still grade a 50 99 times out of 100.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...are often based on 2 spider wrinkles. I see two in your scan -- one where you describe it, and another going horizontally across the card into Cobb's face under his right eye.

Spider wrinkles are notoriously difficult to spot in scans -- which is why 3rd party grading is so important in internet transactions.

This is the example of any SGC 30 with spider wrinkles that I always refer to:

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28217&usetid=1015

Please keep in mind that grading is a pyramid -- all 10's will look alike, but as you go down the grading scale, the reasons for a grade will vary, with 1's carrying the most variables in grade. An SGC 30/Good/2 can have any number of reasons for that grade including two hugely visible creases and two spider wrinkles. SGC will not give a 40 to cards with 2 creases or spider wrinkles, generally.

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Posted By: JK

Crack it out and resubmit.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

That's a beautiful card. If the grade is important to you, I've found that sometimes cards like that get graded lower because they have almost imperceptible traces of glue residue on the back. If you crack it out of the holder, run your finger gently along the back. If you feel more resistance, or a "pull", in one area of the card, that's what the problem is. You also may be able to see it, holding it at an angle under a halogen bulb.

Either way, that's a gorgeous example of one of my favorite cards.

-Al

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Posted By: Dave Snyder

.....I love the card no matter what the grade on the slab says.

To T206 collector - I respect your opinions greatly and agree with much of what you say, but I guess the point is, we all take the time to submit cards to SGC, PSA, GAI etc....for what reason? To have an idependent, 3rd party authenticate the card and to analyze its strengths and weaknesses and assign a final "grade" to it. Naturally everybody wants a higher grade whenever possible - especially with their HOF'ers. My goal is to eventually complete the monster in SGC 50/60 or PSA 4/5. I realize this will require a lot of upgrading along the way for me and this was one card that I would have been satisfied with for the rest of my life - without ever having to upgrade. This Cobb simply does not equal the majority of SGC 30's that I have....and by that I mean it's not even close. If what you say is true, then the range of what can be classified by SGC as a 30 is WAY to broad.

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Posted By: T206Collector

What it comes down to for me is consistency of grading. If I see an SGC 30 as sharp as yours, I believe that now I can guess why it has gotten a 30 with some degree of accuracy. I've got 520 T206 cards graded by SGC at home, ranging from A to 80, and at this point, I only have had 4 or 5 that I have considered having regraded. The Devlin above was once in an SGC 20 holder, which I thought was ridiculous. I resubmitted it and got it bumped up to a 30.

In the end, I may not always agree with what they consider to be an SGC 30, but I know what it takes to get above a 30 from SGC.

Moreover, I have the same goal as you, more or less. I'd like to get at least 521 different T206 cards graded by SGC with an average grade of SGC 40 or higher. That is a doable goal. And once I get there, hopefully in the next couple of years, I will move up to a goal of an SGC 50 average. But along my journey, one of the tougher cards to upgrade for me will be my Chance Red Portrait.

http://www.sgccardregistry.com/images.asp?cardid=28439&usetid=1015

The reason it's a 10 is because it's a bit dirty and has some minor paper loss on the back -- I should know, I was the one who once soaked this card off of an old collector's cardboard presentation of T206 cards. I really like the card a lot, and it presents better than most SGC 10's. But eventually I'll upgrade it to a copy that I enjoy as much and that will pass SGC's muster.

Good luck!

Paul

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

T206 has a very solid theory on cards in the lower grades. There's a LOT of latitude because the grades are so technical. A card can have a minty-looking front but paper loss on the back, and grade a 2. It can also be creased up, with round corners and grade a 2. That's where the differences in eye appeal come into play, and also where collecting lower-grade, graded cards can be a ton of fun. Because you can still set a budget and build a low-grade set that is beautiful in terms of eye appeal.

When you get up into the higher registers, there is less room for argument. An 8 is an 8, and a single flaw can take it down to a 7. But there's way more leeway in the lower grades.

Case in point, not to hijack, but here's my T205 Eddie Collins. This is a tough card, and I bought it in a PSA 1 or 2 holder (can't remember which) and crossed it to SGC to blend with the rest of my set. It looks fantastic - an easy 6 - but for the paper loss on the back. In the case of this card, I was happy to own it because it's beautiful.



This is, in my opinion, one of those areas where grading can be truly helpful. It would have been very easy to buy your Cobb raw and have it described as VG-EX or even EX. However, if there truly is a flaw in it that would bring it down to such a low grade, then the slab helps you to identify the card as one with a technical flaw that might not otherwise be described. That enables you to buy an accurately described card, but make a value judgement based on the eye appeal. It would be a pleasure to own that Cobb, regardless of the holder.

-Al

Edited for clarity

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Posted By: Dave Snyder

What you say makes sense....but I probably will crack and submit to PSA - just to see what they say.

I'd pay SGC 10 money for that red Chance port. every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

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Posted By: Dylan

Now that there pointed out i think i can see those two light creases. I recently bought a T205 Minor Leaguer appeared VG/EX or EX except for staining on the back.. the staining on the back brought its technical grade down to an SGC 20, but its a hell of a lot nicer then most SGC 20 IMO

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Posted By: Scot Reader

Considering the light wrinkles looks like a 40 to me.

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Posted By: Jim

I think the staining on the back did you in.

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Posted By: Paul

This just illustrates again the fact that the lower 2 or 3 grades have way too much variety in them. Assuming that the Cobb really has some spider wrinkles and was properly graded, who wouldn't rather have this card than one with massive creases in the same grade? With the lower grades, you just don't know what you're going to get. The grade of "2" could rationally be divided into about 5 or 10 distinct grades. The current grading systems focus on the higher grades, where the tiniest little flaw moves you from one grade down to the next, and you can be reasonably confident what a particular grade of card will look like without even seeing the card.

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Posted By: T206Collector

<<This just illustrates again the fact that the lower 2 or 3 grades have way too much variety in them.>>

3rd party grading isn't about buying cards blind based on a 10 point numbering system. It's about identifying flaws in cards. When you see a scan like this but SGC says its a 30, it is irrelevant to point out whether you think it should've graded higher -- the relevance of a 30 with a scan like this is that there is something that can't be seen from a scan. That's what grading is all about.

Like I said before, cards can grade SGC 30 for about 1,500 reasons -- as a result no two 30's will look alike. The higher up on the grading scale you go, the more they will look alike. At this scale, the entire useful function of grading is to flag cards with hard to see defects.

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Posted By: Paul

T206 Collector,

I think you're making the same point as me. At this end of the scale, the grade gives you very little information. As you said, if the scan looks good, the grade tells you that there is only a subtle flaw that might not show up in the scan (or even in person with the card in the holder).

I still think the grading companies could do a much better job of informing the public of the condition of a card at the lower grades. For example, they could break the lower grades down into more increments, as they have done for the higher grades. At the higher grades, if I breathe on a 9 it becomes an 8. But at the lower grades, if I fold in half a card that has a 1 mm square bit of back damage, it starts as a 2 and remains a 2. A few extra grades at the lower end would help avoid this silliness. Another alternative would be sub-grades. This has been tried before and I'm not sure why it didn't go over well.

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Posted By: Dylan

Cant we leave it to the buyers to determine those increments though? I mean how detailed of a grading system do we need? I like being able to pay a little premium for a really nice 2. With all these extra grades in the lower side of the grading spectrum, i can kiss those deals goodbye. It would take a lot of the fun out of it for me.

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Posted By: barrysloate

It might be better if there weren't many more grades added to the system. While collectors count on the expertise of the grading service, they also take pride in learning to grade themselves, and understanding why a card got the grade it did. If you begin to institute half grades, the system becomes too complicated.

Coins are graded on a 1 to 70 scale, with MS 70 being perfection. Coins originally had three levels of uncirculated: MS 60, which is average: MS 65 which is gem; and MS 70 which is considered perfect. With these three grades, collectors could pretty much determine what grade their coin would get.

Today there are eleven different uncirculated grades from 60 to 70. It has now become an extremely complicated process, just as baffling before as after the coin is graded. Too many sub-grades may not be such a good thing.

Perhaps a 30 with a short explanation, such as "30-heavy creasing", or "30-paper loss" might add some accuracy to the lower grades.

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Posted By: peter chao

Dave,

I would say SGC 40-50 because of serious wear to the corners. But I love that red background.

Peter

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Posted By: Scot Reader

I agree with Barry that increased granularity in grading would do more harm than good. Reasonable minds already differ about whether a particular card should have received a 5 when it got a 3, or vice versa. While this is occasionally due to a grading "error", it is often due to the fact that there is a subjetive component to grading, i.e. how important particular kinds of flaws (creases, staining, centering, etc.) are to an individual grader or collector. If we at least sometimes can't differentiate between a 5 and a 3 due to this subjective element, how could we possibly differentiate between a 47 and a 33?

People say "buy the card, not the holder." While I think this is a mild overstatement, there is a kernel of truth in it. One should consider a holder from a major grading company to indicate a ballpark grade, not some absolute, irrefutable, scientifically precise grade.