Grading a trimmed cabinet card

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Posted By: Silver King

I picked up this Cabinet Card of Silver King several years ago and I'd like to get some opinions on two issues (1)type of cabinet card. Obviously this is a card of a player out of uniform. Was this common among ballplayers and are these types of cards desirable to collectors? (2) Grading. I debated whether or not to have the card graded and whether or not it could be graded. My first grading concern was whether or not SGC would put their stamp of approval that the card is actually Silver King. Secondly I wondered about the fact that the card has been trimmed on the bottom and all four corners. I emailed Michael at SGC he said that too much had been trimmed to give it an authentic grade. I guess my first question is why won't they grade a trimmed card as authentic-trimmed or something similar? Also, if the card hadn't been trimmed and was in perfect shape, would they be able to say whether or not it is Silver King and give it a grade?

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Posted By: barrysloate

I assume the card you refer to is the one in the upper right corner, and not the Dogs Head, which is clearly him (and a pretty scarce cabinet). They have certain threshholds about what they will or will not authenticate, and you just have to speak with them about it. Maybe they really don't know what Silver King looks like, and that is the issue. If you could prove it is him, that might help.

edited to say the Dogs Head is now gone.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I would absolutely get the card put into an SGC oversized holder, even though it would only grade a 10 due to the corners being snipped.

They only use the "authentic" label for special cards... but if you send it in and request them to grade it and make it clear that you would settle for an "Authentic"...

I think you will be very happy.


PS - I don't think your card is truly considered a "trimmed" card... even though it is obviously trimmed.

The grading companies refuse to grade trimmed cards that are NOT obviously trimmed to the naked eye for fear of someone NOT knowing later that the card was ever trimmed.

Your card does not have that danger associated with it since anyone would know that it was trimmed.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

These types of street clothes portraits of pro baseball players exist for many players including Anson, Cy Young, King Kelly, Christy Mathewson, etc. They are in demand.

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Posted By: Steve M.

I just love my Marty Sullivan Stevens Cabinet

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Posted By: leon

You are correct except that nowadays the AUT holders are not saved for only special cards. They are really taken on a case by case basis, by SGC (that's all I really know about on this) and will use the grade, for almost any card, if the card only has one issue like trimming, recoloring, rebacking, etc....Generally if it has more than one issue they don't like to grade it. I believe they have not made any firm rules so they don't get pigeon holed into a corner and can use some common sense....best regards

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

PROVENANCE - It seems like this has got great provenance.

Great Provenance = Great Value

No Provenance = lesser value

I'd probably to find a nice holder for it. They sell the nice display grade top loaders for cabinets (or at least a cabinet will fit in these certain top holders). I'm not sure if sending it to SGC or PSA for encapsulation would help it.

Personally, I'm not sure how a grading service can actually encapsulate a cabinet of a player unless they (the grading service) could actually prove (without a doubt) it was the player in question. Players like Anson, Cobb or highly recognizable people may be the exception. This of course is only my opinion.

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Posted By: Steve M.

show a known issued card of the same player.


Four Base Hits courtesy of Dan G.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Steve, are you certain it's the same person? Look real close at the eyes...

Yup, that'll do it... That is such a nice contrast in pieces. Wow!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Beyond obviously recognizable people like Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner, some street clothes cabinets come with information that helps prove the identity. Some come from the player estates, or from a group of identical cabinets of his teammates players. In the case of the T206 player CDV posted on the board a while back, the photography studio was in a town that was not only the player's birthplace but had a population of under a few hundred-- obviously this narrows things down.

These things only support the facial recognition and looking at other photos of the players. But if it looks like the player, came from his estate and was shot in his tiny home town, it would appear to be the player.

Naturally, it's even easier if the player is wearing a Detroit Tigers or University of Michigan football uniform. If it's a Wolverines player and the studio was Ann Arbor, you don't need provenance-- you just have to look at old photos to see which player he looks like.

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Posted By: Silver King

I emailed Michael at SGC and forwarded him pictures of the front and back and he said that there was too much missing to authenticate. I asked what he meant by "too much missing", wondering if he was referring to the card being trimmed or if he meant that there wasn't enough proof that the picture is actually Silver King. His response was that the graders felt that too much of the card had been trimmed to give it an authentic grade. He did suggest I check back several months from now.
As for proof that the card is Silver King, my only proof is an eye witness. My grandmother is still alive today and she used to live with Silver King. I pulled out the card and showed it to her without telling her who it was, and she almost broke down in tears. She knew instantly that it was a picture of her grandfather. The only problem is that I don't think SGC is going to take the word of an 88 year old relative. And, so far I haven't found any pictures of Silver King other than the N172 & N173 cards, and those aren't close-ups. Anybody know of websites, books or something which might help prove to SGC that the cabinet really is him? Here is the back of the cabinet.


robert shaw

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Posted By: Kyle

this is all i could find on google:

http://www.thedeadballera.com/Cards/KingSilver_card.html



http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/f?bbcards:0:./temp/~ammem_pzUM:

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Posted By: joe

Here is a photo from Baseball by Ken Burns. King is in the light uniform without mustache.

Joe



Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

As far as the King cabinet goes, you evidently are related to him. That it comes from the family (you being a relative), and has been identified as King by his living granddaughter who knew him, is known as family provenance. A letter from the King's descendant (you) would be considered significant documentation. Quickly comparing to the other pics, it does resemble King. That is was photographed by a St. Louis studio is obviously relevant, as he played for the St. Louis Browns.

A potential buyer would compare pics himself to see if he agreed it looked like King, but a family letter, along with the St. Louis stamp, would be considered important documentation. I don't know what buyer of a photo of Buck Ewing or Eddie Plank or Ernest Hemmingway wouldn't think it was great that it came with a letter from the person's descendant, even if the buyer already firmly believed it was the famous person.

As far as SGC goes, I'm sure they don't consider themselves in the business of doing FBI facial recognition or geneological studies-- in particular due to the time required versus the set fee charged. I don't interpret them not accepting the card as a comment on the identity, but that that type of face recognition of unidentified players is not their job.

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Posted By: joe

Is it just me, but what does this statement mean?

SGC's response "His response was that the graders felt that too much of the card had been trimmed to give it an authentic grade. He did suggest I check back several months from now."

The card is not going to grow corners in the next several months. What will change in several months? New graders or what?.

Joe


Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Silver King

I myself wondered why I should check back in several months and then somebody else told me that SGC is fairly new to grading cabinet cards and perhaps a few more months of submissions by others might allow them to get some ideas about what they will and will not grade. I don't know if that makes any sense, it seems the same rules would apply to a cabinet card the same as it would a standard card.

robert shaw