OT-$282,587 for a Mantle PSA 9

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Jim and Barry: I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think there is no such thing as a "quick game of chess". lolol.

And for Jim (and maybe Bruce): A question of genuine interest and curiosity - I'm not accusing anyone of collecting a number on a slab. If grading were still not invented, do you think your collecting would still be the same? I can't tell from scans the difference between a 7 and a 9. Does that mean your quest for high-end cards would limit you to cards that you could see in person? Or would you still be able to maintain the focus and criteria you have now?

Do you think this hobby would be more interesting and challenging, or less?

Me? My collecting world is in the lower to middle ends, so usually I can tell from a scan if I would like a card or not - the differences are obvious. I'm not sure how it would work for characteristics that are less obvious. (Also, I'm not all that expert in higher end cards - it could be that these collectors can see some things in scans of 7's, 8's, and 9's that completely escape me.)

Joann

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Joann- one of the most popular versions of casual chess is "speed" or "blitz" chess where both players use a clock and have five minutes to play their entire game. I've played thousands of speed games and they can be a lot of fun. Sure, you make errors, but you can still play at a pretty high level if you know what you are doing.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joann

Barry,

Now THAT is a kind of chess I could get into. I'd probably lose every game for a long time (I don't know any of the set strategies, etc), but at least I could get through a game without being as distracted by the waiting like I usually am.

Cool.

J

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

You of course don't have enough time to analyze each move so you look for familiar positions and recognizable themes. You can't play the best move, but you can play a logical one. It takes its own special discipline.

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

Barry wrote: "because the physical difference between a nice 6 and an 8 is pretty insignificant. "

I can see the difference vividly. When correctly graded (and yes, there are some incorrectly graded ones), a 8 and a 6 are worlds apart. Barry, I won a 6 and an 8 in your November auction. They were from two different grading companies, but the condition of the card is a lot different and if one looked at the card carefully and close up (no need for a loupe even), it should be plainly obvious what the differences are. Some people don't care about that difference, some do, and yet others (like me) sometimes do and sometimes don't depending on the set and/or card.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Ted,

You have got to be one of the most condescending people I have ever met. You think your way is the only way to collect. Quit attacking me and post about whatever you want to post about. Do you ever read what you write? Ever since I have started with my campaign to clean up the hobby you have done nothing but criticize me--get a life buddy and try to quit attacking me!

Hi Frank--

Tough to decide which one I would rather have but I do think the Pafko would go for more--thanks for the plug--I am a happy collector except whren people like Ted try to impose his way of collecting on us.

Barry and Joann,

Five minute blitz chess is brutal--respecially playing the guys in the park--I always lose on time, even when I am winning the game.

King,

Completely agree--I think a big difference between a 6 and an 8.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

I would think the whole collecting by condition discussion comes down to being pretty simple - you become expert at what you focus on. If it's 7's 8's and 9's you look at all day, then the differences though seemingly minor to many are plain as day to those whose focus they are.
Similarly if you like SGC40's better than 30's because it often means less distracting or major creases - though in number they may be the same, then you choose them that way. Everyone gets to choose what's important in a card's aesthetics, and then builds their collection to reflect that.
I could be wrong, but it seems everyone who wants to denegrate Jim's collecting style focus on the grade of the flips he collects. And I think Jim focuses on that grade because it is reflected in the card's condition. If an 8 requires similar corners but better centering than a 7, I'll lay dollars to donuts he just plainly prefers a centered card. In fact, he's said a million times when drawn in to such discussions that he simply doesn't like the look of creases/wrinkles, wear to surface and corners, poor centering, and other effects of time or poor print quality on paper.
At a guess, he probably similarly likes his car clean, and when it gets dirty it bugs him. If someone puts a scrape or a nick in his fender, he more than likely gets it fixed straight away so that he can continue to enjoy his car...
I'm not sure why anyone hounds him for his decisions (ok, exept the whole backbone comment, though I doubt it reflects everything he has added to the board or to other interested collectors, and shouldn't follow him for bloody ever...). They make him happy.
A guy with a vintage car who keeps it absolutely shmick and cleans it when he gets home, or a motorbike rider who has to keep all the chrome absolutely reflective, we don't judge their true ability to enjoy the machinery they own because of a pre-occupation with condition? In fact, it seems mostly we celebrate those people as serious enthusiasts who give us nice eye candy to look at in the magazines we thumb in barber shops and planes.

And, if ultimately he also sleeps easier at night as a collector because he feels the market for his cards will save his bacon or conscience if he has to sell, and wishes to talk it up for both his own peace and to make it self-fulfilling through some marketing....hell, I don't care. Why should anyone? The truth will be told in the lifetime of his collecting and how he disposes of it.

While it is regularly said you shouldn't spend what you can't afford to lose on this hobby, truth is that for most people losing the money they've spent on cards would hurt them enormously emotionally, financially, and have consequences to others in their families. Maybe some will tell me bulldust and that their collecting affects no-one but themselves, I'd think that they would be in minority.

I thought with Frank's post attempting to celebrate however we collect, that we were past all this crap.
Doesn't everyone just want to move on?


Oh, and I love my GAI3 52' topps Mantle and wouldn't upgrade it for the world. Kind of like my old dog, she maybe couldn't do it all but she reflected the best parts of me and will always be connected to me, I mean, I chose her, and loved her from the very start. And similarly I feel a real connection to my cards as I keep them safely until the next owner gets that responsibility. Isn't that enough to know, and isn't participation on this board with the time it chews up a pretty good example of everyone's passion for vintage cards? I doubt you could start one up that only had slabs and the flips inside, with no cards to enjoy!


Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I agree with King re the difference between a 6 and an 8. Two totally different specimens. As for the difference between a 7 and an 8, it is more subtle but still usually obvious. That being said, when I'm completing a set in the 7-8 range I usually buy the graded card of 7 or 8 which comes up first on ebay or otherwise. Sometimes one does feel stupid paying anywhere from 3-5x more for a common 8 simply because it became available first.

As someone who has some registry sets, I often wrestle with the true stupidity of completing a set by paying large numbers for common 8s or 9s, simply to complete the set. Spending $1800 on a 1955 Art Fowler PSA 8 when I could have used that money towards an SGC 88 E93 Mathewson is just one of many examples of this sort of stupidity.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Jeff,

I agree--the way I battle this is to have a number of sets I am working on so I can avoid paying a high price for a hot card. The 55s have been hot for some time but slowly I am moving toward completion here--the 59s are another red hot set with the lower pops.

Daniel,

Thanks--people like different things. I have said a million times collect what you want to collect--I do not like collecting anything less than nrmt-mt cards as I just don't like the looks of them. I am a passionate collector and love the hobby but I hate cards with dinged corners or off center or creases or other visible defects. You guys who like these --wonderful--I don't--to each his own.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

King- your point is well taken, so let me rephrase what I meant, and your purchase is a perfect example. While the difference between a 6 and 8 is apparent, you are a collector of high grade cards, and although you might prefer to have 8's you deemed the 6 high enough quality to fit in your collection. And that was really my point- that 6's are nice looking cards, and that I disagreed with Jim calling a 6 a low grade card. Granted, not a registry grade, but for most collectors a quality example.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

I never specifically said a PSA 6 was a low-grade card--it is not. I sid if the highest example of a card in a set was a 5 or a 6 I would not try for the set because I don't like lower grade cards. If the highest was a 5 or a 6 then there would likely be lower cards too.

Happy Holidays.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: cmoking

Barry, I see your point. BTW, I am not necessarily a collector of high grade cards, I also collect some sets in low to mid grade. I have a tendency to like consistency of grades in the sets I collect. My E92 mixed-back set has an average grade of SGC 40. My T206 set is only in SGC 50 and a sprinkling of PSA 4 cards. The Diamond Stars set I'm working on range from PSA/SGC 6 to 8, while my 1934 Goudey set is mostly PSA 7 or 8. So I do collect and appreciate many different grades. At the same time, I can see how someone like Jim would only be interested in PSA 8 cards. And I can also see how someone else is only interested in SGC 20-50 cards. What I am curious about is the bashing that goes both ways.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

King- whatever grade you collect, I agree that keeping a set as consistent as possible is a good idea.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

It's kind of funny to read these posts because everyone seems to think that only their way of looking at the world is correct. I think Jim and Leon can be equally happy pursuing their goals. IMO a collector sets goal. Those goals could be completing a PSA 8 set or completing a group of different backs in a caramel set. As the collector progresses towards completing that goal he/she achieves happiness from the pursuit. Whether one receives more or less than the other is probably more a function of the person's internal makeup than the goal they are trying to achieve. I achieve happiness moving towards completing the sets I am working on. Some are registry sets where I am searching for a number, some are vintage sets where I am searching for an esoteric variety. I achieve pleasure from both pursuits. I dislike pre-war caramel cards. I think they are ugly and would never collect them. However, I fully understand that some people like them for their rarity, and some may actually like them for their appearance, and I can understand that they would achieve much satisfaction from making progress on their sets. It wouldn't make me happy, but it makes them happy and that's all that matters.
Being an old fart I still remember the words to a Joe South song:

Walk a mile in my shoes. walk a mile in my shoes
Before you abuse, criticize and confuse
Walk a mile in my shoes

Everyone enjoy the holidays!

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

What- you think caramel cards are ugly!! Those are fighting words!!

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

Really really well said Jay.


Daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

I agree with you.

Jim- if it makes you happy to collect the way you do, and it obviously does, then that's great. I mis-spoke when I said you aren't happy if you are. There is room in our hobby for everyone including you and I. I would like to offer an olive branch as a token of friendship. Have a happy holidays and I hope you find a nice PSA 8 or 9 in your stocking this year....I am hoping for a card to fill a hole in my collection too...

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

We've gone through 167 posts to discover what we all already knew- that there is no right or wrong way to collect. What we may however need a little more of is tolerance towards the other guy's way of collecting.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Leon,

Sounds good to me.

Happy Holidays to you as well.

Jim