Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

No wonder Brian doesn't want to come on here. He buys a raw card that the seller thought would get a 7 and he got an 8 so therefore he alters cards?!?!?! That is a ridiculous and probably slanderous claim. The ony other evidence presented was that he paid more than some dealers were willing to pay for a group of Mantles. I have walked dozens of cards around shows and taken the best offer. Am I to presume and convict that dealer who made the highest offer of intending to alter the cards because he paid more that others? It is probably exactly this type of bull**** heresay that keeps respected hobby people away from this site. It just isn't worth it.

I have dealt with Brian Drent a number of times and echo the sentiments of his other supporters on this thread. He is one of the good guys in this hobby.

Since this is America, how about we have a little evidence before we convict people.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Jim Loewke

It only took 9 minutes to expose yourself as a hypochrite Peter!

Re: Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues November 29 2006, 11:18 AM

"How do I know Steve is being truthful? How do I know what his motives are? And even if he is being truthful, how do I know his assessment that the card was NM was accurate?"

In your own written words, you attack Steve's integrity, without any proof of his lying about his own statements. Then 9 minutes later, you offer this gem below:


Re: Mile High Card Company's Stance on Hobby Issues November 29 2006, 11:27 AM

"People's reputations are at stake here. It is absolutely wrong to throw them under the bus without critically examining the supposed evidence against them, AND waiting to hear their side of the story if they wish to give it."

To sum up, OK for you to go after people you don't like but not OK for other people to go after people you do like. I don't have a vested interest in either auctioneer for the record. Seems to me that if you want to be able to go after the auctioneer of your choice, there should be no crying when somebody goes after yours Peter.

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter Spaeth

What the hell are you talking about? I never attacked Steve's integrity. I merely pointed out to Mike that I was not prepared to jump to any conclusions on the basis of his post. The focus of my post was assuming he was telling the truth, there was another quite plausible explanation, namely that Steve and PSA simply graded the card differently.

[Archive]

Posted By: Noel

Ok, What about the other thousands of cards Brian has handled. Can he categorically deny that he has done anything to alter any of those? More importantly why can he not come on here and speak for himself? Five minutes worth of his time could set the record straight...

Noel Wrye

[Archive]

Posted By: BcD

I left specific instructions before on how to press out a crease as well at what architectural eraser to use and how to properly apply it in prior threads. Jim would not believe who showed me how to do these things" back in the day" ( that was for you Trevor! I know you love that quote! )

BcD

[Archive]

Posted By: shane

Guys,
I am sorry that I said that all dealers flatten out a corner or press out a wrinkle. That is poor wording on my part....it is closer to 98% of the dealers. I believe it is not in the best interest of any dealer to speak on their practices here on the boards because of the way some people jump on you once you post. No matter how you explain it or how it comes out, you can never correct the situation or please everyone. All sellers want to present their cards in the best light possible. Back in the days of placing expensive cards in screw downs, if the corner is flipped up dealers/collectors did not screw the holder down with the corner going forward. They simply laid the corner down before they screwed down the holder. It is the same way today with grading companies. People are going to lay down the corner before it is encapsulated so it is presentable to a potential buyer.

Shane

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Koteles

Soon the 9 yr olds will be posting here to get in on the level of drama going on here.For what true reason JIM are you calling out everyone to detail everything they have done in their past.

Doug Allen answers and their are 200 posts, thought is was a simple question for him to answer: which he did, and you dont get any satisfaction and continue to abuse these people .

You have no repsect for those who have consigned items with these honorable groups as if there is a MAJOR SCANDAL going on AND if you have no imput positive in regards to all good people invovled , you need to take your 9's & 10's and your self adorn-ment and go lay away in the manger.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

I have abused noone--I have very respectfully asked a handful of people(mostly my friends) a few questions.

This has received an overwhelmingly positive response both from the board but also e-mails.
At any time if the majority want me to stop the fact finding mission because the facts are too painful I will. Leon wants no new posts for awhile so I guess these posts will run their course.

I think the results so far have been very positive and I have spelled them out on other threads.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

Don't we have enough of these threads going? Please email or call me if you want to start another new one. I can't believe we would need to but am willing to listen....take care

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Leon,

Of course. I wouldn't do anything without your explicit approval.

In a few days we can chat again and assess the lay of the land.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

Actually Dan,

I am getting a few e-mails criticizing me for not asking people what they have done in the past--the question goes--while you had the opportunity Jim why didn't you ask them if they had altered cards in the past.

Fortunately,there are a lot of people on this board asking the tough questions.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: BcD

that is because you have touted certain dealers YOU think have been above this kind of thing! Guess what Jim!!!!!!

This is why I asked you how long you have been collecting vintage (pre-1930 or so)cards? I had set up in the 80's next to a guy everyone here knows well first as a dealer then a grader then a dealer again who did everything you can think of to restore cards.I wonder how many you purchased from him Jim.9and no it's not Jay Berhens even though Jay did live where I do in the 80's)

BcD

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I should have known: a Behrens is at the bottom of all this.

[Archive]

Posted By: JimCrandell

BcD,

Enlighten us with your knowledge--you e-mailed the name to me at my home.

I will not disclose what you said but if you would like to be my guest.

Jim

[Archive]

Posted By: shane

"I am a dealer and the last time I ironed a crease out of a card was about 20 years ago. I tried it a few times, never got it quite right, and never tried it again. Please don't say all dealers iron out creases; we can agree that a percentage of dealers do it."


Barry I have tried ironing out creases myself not only failing at it but sometimes screwing the card up. I guess my question to you would be if you would have been successful with getting out a crease or wrinkle, would you still be doing it today? If I knew the right process to do this I would continue to do it because I don't think this practice is wrong.

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

No- I wouldn't be. I don't even know why I did it then. Looking back, I shouldn't have. But so little was at stake. Cards had little value at the time.

[Archive]

Posted By: Noel

Shane,

There are a lot of people in this hobby who do believe that taking out a crease is not only wrong but unethical and deceptive. No matter how you spin it, it is altering. If you feel strongly about there being nothing wrong with this practice, than it should disclosed on the card being sold.

Noel Wrye

[Archive]

Posted By: BcD

You have not answered my question I have now asked you twice? How long have you been collecting, interacting, involved with pre war vintage card dealers?
This allows for gauging who you may be exposed to and what you may or may not know or have heard about certain dealers that have been around for some time..
It also helps gauge what you may know about the holdings your own collection Jim! I don't need to enlighten what people who lurk on here have known for years~ This all just may be an eye opening experience for you but come on now, do you really think people are going to expose particular dealers and what they do or have done on a public board just so appease curiosity and ignorance! There are people on here who know plenty but they can't prove what they know so it certainly is not worth the law suit to validate something you have not seemingly found out yet!

On the other note, I sent you my phone number if you wish to discuss this with me. Sadly, when sued in this country,the defendant even if acquitted still has to pay legal fees Jim. This is not England. I will tell you I successfully sued the biggest scam dealer of them all for fraud and should have sued another for filing bankruptcy after holding a catalog auction lying about its layout and violating his own contract to allow consignors to bid on thier lots then taking in hundreds of thousands of dollars only not to pay many of the consignors. Anyway,if you want to call me please do otherwise I'm not going to post anything that can cause grief later like most who know things.


BcD

[Archive]

Posted By: shane

Noel,
I don't have a problem with it. If I knew how to do it correctly and was asked if I had laid down a corner or pushed out a wrinkle, I would without hesitation tell the potential buyer. To think that this is not being done on a regular basis is very, very naive. I am not ashamed of my position with this topic. To think that you don't have any cards in your collection that has had a corner pressed down would be rare. So in the future, are you going to email a seller on Ebay or ask a dealer if a card has had a wrinkle removed everytime you buy a card from here on out? If you run into honest guys, you may be waiting to buy something for a couple of years.

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

Please forgive me it was a 1952 Topps Crandall. I believe the card had a rough cut and nice but was no way sharp enough for an 8. While PSA can overgrade cards (as all the grading services can), we rarely see 1952 Topps 8s if ever that do not have four sharp corners and we all know how brutal they are with rough cuts. Again, people can interpret this however they wish, but that card was altered by Drent to get in an 8 holder and his recent purchase was suspicious.

Also, did he not have a big Old Judge or other 19th century that was originally in a Mastro auction that SGC graded that had writing or something else removed from the back? He never made it clear whether the card was from a consignor or if he owned it?

Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Be very careful Steve to your wording on the Crandell card. Those are some pretty harsh words and very liable statement on your part.

Shane

[Archive]

Posted By: Noel Wrye

It does disgust me to think of it but i am aware that it is probably done much more often than i think. That is the reason i buy graded cards but i realize that is certainly no guarantee either. I do applaud you for coming out and saying that you dont see a problem with it. I do, and i guess it is the thought that so many people do it under the radar and pass the card off as unaltered is what bothers me. I believe it is altered and should be stated as such. If that is done, i say go ahead and press/iron away any wrinkles. Disclosure and honesty is the key for me. Heck, i may still be interested in the card but certainly at a reduced rate.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

Steve, those may be two of the most potentially libelous posts I've ever read.

"What he [Brian] did not tell people is he trimmed, pressed or otherwise altered the card and then got it graded. Some could say I have sour grapes, but I am not a trimmer, and people can interpret this FIRST HAND information however they wish."

Perhaps Brian didn't tell people these things because they aren't true. Your "evidence" here consists of a card, which you mis-identified in your post, that you felt was a PSA 7 and that Brian sent into PSA and got back as an 8. As near as I can tell, that's the extent of your "FIRST HAND" information. Pretty damning - you thought it was a 7 and it came back an 8. Boy, I'm sure that's never happened to anyone before.

You later wrote, referring to the same card: "but that card was altered by Drent to get in an 8 holder and his recent purchase was suspicious." And your evidence is what exactly? Did you see it being altered? Did you see it after it was graded? Altered how? Can you provide anything to support your allegation other than the fact that you thought the card would have gotten a 7 when you sold it raw?

In your second stunning example you state that Brian paid about 25% more than others were offering for a lot of mid grade Mantle cards. Gee, so he paid more than other were supposedly (I sincerely doubt you know the actual amounts of all the offers made) offering. And that's evidence of what? I assume you haven't seen any of these cards since he bought them, correct? So this appears to be proof of nothing more than that Brian made (apparently) the top offer on this lot. Have you seen any of them graded? Have you seen any in an altered state fromwhen you first looked at them? No? Wow. Lock him up.

Finally you swooped in to deliver the coup de grace: "Also, did he not have a big Old Judge or other 19th century that was originally in a Mastro auction that SGC graded that had writing or something else removed from the back? He never made it clear whether the card was from a consignor or if he owned it?"

Let me see if I'm following you. Brian apparently had a card, which you can only identify as "a big Old Judge or other 19th century" card. I can't tell from the quote exactly what you're implying. I assume from the last sentence that it was in Mastro raw, but ended up in Brian's auction SGC slabbed with either writing or something else (you apparently aren't sure which) removed from the back. Now you acknowledge that you don't know if he owned this card or it was consigned to him... so exactly what is this evidence of? Some unidentified card was bought raw from Mastro, may or may not have had something (you're not exactly sure what) removed from the reverse by who knows who, was submitted to SGC by who knows who, and ended up in Brian's auction owned/consigned by an unknown person. Wow. I feel like I'm watching an Oliver Stone movie here. I think I know less about this situation now than before I'd ever even heard of it in the first place.

I guess I can come to one conclusion from all of these posts. I will never deal with Steve Verkman if this is how he operates.

Jeff

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Or I think it does anyhow, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

I concur with the observation above by Jeff. I have no way of knowing the truth here, but as an observer trying to form a judgment it does not lend credibility to the accuser's story when (1) he gets a CRITICAL piece of information wrong, to wit the identity of the card in question, and (2) he provides no before and after evidence to support his claim. At the moment, now that he seems to have corrected his misidentification of the card, all we have to go on is the accuser's statement that based on his experience (was he ever a PSA dealer? my understanding is that he principally deals in raw off grade cards, but perhaps that is wrong), the card would not have been graded an 8 absent it being altered. That opinion, by itself, does not seem sufficient to me given the subjectivity inherent in grading, as I posted before.

Now to add to my issues, in his first post the accuser stated that the card in his opinion must have been trimmed, pressed, or altered in some way. That seemed quite vague and did not suggest any particular flaw with the card. Now, in the second post, we are told the reason the accuser did not think it would grade 8 is the rough cut. Does one press out a rough cut? I would hope not. So if the issue was the rough cut all along, why initially post that the card was trimmed, pressed, or altered in some way, why not just say it was trimmed? Perhaps the accuser had a further recovery of memory?

Anyhow, to summarize, I have no idea of what the truth is, and I am NOT saying the accuser is not right, but as someone who can only go by what is posted, I see some question marks in the evidence that has been presented to date in support of a highly serious accusation affecting a man's reputation. Perhaps some clarification will be forthcoming.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Guess Steve V doesn't. If he cannot recall which cards are involved or other pertinent information, should he really be running his mouth about situations he has not really demonstrated knowing much about? He has made statements which he purports are factual and drawn serious conclusions about Drent's practices. I can only assume, by the irresponsible nature of his posts, that he is judgment proof, since his statements seem slanderous and actionable. Even if his recounting of the experiences were accurate, he has no proof. None at all. But I guess that is not important.

Steve made statements about cards Drent bought and what he felt they should grade. Steve has enough trouble assigning accurate and truthful grades to cards he sells. There have been many threads on here about collectors who feel he is not at all accurate in his assessments. One could easily conclude from those threads and his website that he usually disregards the back of the card and grades solely on the front. I am not sure that someone like that is truly qualified to determine whether a card is going to grade NM or NM-MT by any grading company. Also what makes Steve an expert in knowing what cards will grade by third party grading companies? Has Steve submitted more than 200 cards in his lifetime? Steve sells mainly ungraded low grade material.

Steve should take his personal agenda with Drent someplace else. Maybe he can reprint his stories in his next auction catalog, as they will fit in nicely with his other garbage.

Greg

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I find myself in total aggreement with Greg's post. Why is not more made of raw card dealers who intentionally overgrade their cards in order to create margin?

Charlie

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

As opposed to dealers who alter cards to increase their margin?

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

touche, Jeff.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Jeff,

Any dealer that alters cards to increase margin is doing something wrong as well. But is Mastro one of those dealers because they do things that the grading services won't condem? IMHO, Mastronet is not a card doctoring orginization based upon the information they have provided.

Even Barry concedes that he erases pencil markings. He seems to be like Gandi on this board.

Charlie

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, if Barry is Ghandi then you are Jesus on the cross.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I'm a Jew. Can I be Moses.

Charlie

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Charlie, you could be Moses but you'd probably end up bleaching and stretching the 10 Commandments - now THAT would be a neat trick. (I'm actually laughing out loud for real at that comment)

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

We can agree that would be altering.

Charlie

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Weren't the Ten Commandments engraved on a slab?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Well there are always the Dead Sea Scrolls...

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

There are probably a ton of wrinkles to press out on that document.

Charlie

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

But that wouldn't be alteration.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Wrong Peter. Only if they are graded "blessed" would they then not be considered altered.

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

I would call it "preservation".

Charlie

[Archive]

Posted By: E, Daniel

and easily the only time an AUT grade would be high price in the bible

daniel

[Archive]

Posted By: JimB

A rough cut does not preclude a PSA 8 grade. The PSA 10 1954 Aaron that Mastron sold about a year and a half ago had a rough cut down the right side. I remember looking at it closely at the National.
JimB

[Archive]

Posted By: Steve

This is the problem with this type of thing on the internet. I presented FIRST HAND direct information. I did not introduce this thread and was the fifth or sixth person to post AFTER TWO DAYS. I have no personal relationship or problem with Drent and do not know him personally, he seems freindly enough.

I am simply providing information. My apologies for my slight acknowledged error in recollection. If you then feel this impugns my credibility so be it, but please stop with the attacks (Schwartz and Barokas) - I never comment on anything with either of you. I have submitted over 500 cards just this year to PSA and have plenty of higher grade cards in my auctions but that is beside the point. I can assure you that the 52 Topps card Drent sold was enhanced from when he got it from me. I know many of you hate PSA and that is your right but PSA rarely, if ever, grades 52s with rough cuts AND slightly soft corners 8s. I do not have before and after scans as I had no idea he would do this and do not keep scans of every card, especially when I buy and sell them at the same show. Of course this would not be enough for a criminal conviction, I am simply relaying my experience, nothing more or less.

I also have an auction in January and have two booths at Reading this weekend and found time to address a VITAL issue to the hobby. The fact that Drent is not touching this is to say the least questionable. Attacking someone providing firsthand information does not provide for a healthy or productive debate on an issue that should be important to everyone.

Steve

[Archive]

Posted By: Anonymous

Steve, no offense, but the only "first hand" info you've provided is:

1. Brian bought a card from you that you thought would get a PSA7 that apparently got a PSA8.

2. Brian allegedly bought a lot of cards, including some mid grade Mantles, at a show as he made the highest offer on the group.

That's literally all the info that you've provided. The rest was just insinuations and allegations of unethical activity, with no support for it.

I don't have anything against you - I don't think I've ever bought anything from you in the past. I also have no opinion about Brian - never bought anything from him either. The fact is, however, that you made some potentially very damaging allegations about someone's professional ethics with absolutely nothing to support what you're stating.

Brian may very well have altered the '52 Topps card you described, as well as the 19th century card from Mastro, and he may be planning major surgery on a group of 50s Mantle cards. However, based on the "FIRST HAND direct information" you provided it's quite possible that he got lucky on the grade of a 52 Topps card; had someone buy a card in Mastro, get it graded, then consign it to his auction; and had some buyers interested in some mid grade Mantle cards so he knew he could flip the lot. Which is more plausable? Without proof of misconduct, I'd be hard pressed to go with the conspiracy theory.

You may very well have some legitimate opinions about the ethics of this seller, but before you publish them on a public forum you should really consider how this would look in a court of law. Brian could certainly argue that your allegations hurt his business financially, and that could leave you in a very precarious position with a jury. Of course, if what you say is true then your speach is legally protected and he has no recourse. But based on your most recent response, I sincerely doubt you can provide the necessary proof.

Again, I have nothing for or against either of these individuals. I just don't like seeing someone's professional reputation get tarnished by unsupported innuendo.

Jeff

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave

I don't know Brian...but this could all be a little comical....he just had a great write up about him in this month's PSA SMR magazine...what timing...eh Brian? Life is like a box of chocolates...

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

I think Brian would have a tough time proving damages here. Additionally, his failure to address the issue of possibly altering cards in his auction has hurt his business more than Steve's allegation.

[Archive]

Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I hope Steve's and Brian's booths at Reading are not adjacent.

[Archive]

Posted By: billybaseball

"I think I know less about this situation now than before I'd ever even heard of it in the first place."

That was the best line in this entire thread! I think both Casey and Yogi would be proud.