Who was under bidder in Sloate's auction on Boston CDV group?

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Seems like a lot of last day, late action on this group.. If the under-bidder is out there.. Please e-mail me at jc@numail.org I might be able to hook you up on a couple of them...

JC

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Posted By: Blach

would break this up. Should be all or nothing.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Many "type" collectors only want one card. Plus it makes it that much more harder to collect and keep a complete set. Just think if one person collected Kalamazoo Bats in 1890 and gobbled them all up. If that person did not sell any of them to other people, then a market would have never formed, and they would be rumored to exsist... JC

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Posted By: Jay

If you break this up what you are left with are 11 really bad condition CdVs. Why not keep it the way it was meant to be? It is only in that format that it has real historical significance. BTW, your Kalamazoo Bats analogy makes no sense. A better analogy might be cutting up a Babe Ruth bat to share the joy of ownership.

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Posted By: joe

Jim, at 1st I agreed breaking this set would give other collectors a chance for at least one of these cards. But after looking at the auction catalog I agree with Jay, you would be left with only 3 full cards, the 3 in the middle, the others would have at least 1 corner missing.

Joe

Ty Cobb, Spikes flying!

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

I think it would be a shame to break that up. This is something that belonged to George Wright that was either made by him or put together for him. A one of a kind item from one of the grandfathers of professional baseball. I hope whoever won that realizes the historical signifigance of this item is greater than the monetary gain that may or may not be realized by breaking it up.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I too hoped they would stay together, but my partner and I knew when we put them up for auction that the possibility was strong they would be split up. Once I revealed that it was actually composed of eleven CdV's I knew it might be transformed from a display piece to a group of cards. Breaking up historical documents seems to be a modern day trend. Some of you may know of the cache of William Blake watercolors that were recently discovered. Besides being one of the truly great visionary poets, Blake was also a fine artist. He once did a series of 20 illustrations that were presumed lost until 19 of them were found several years ago in an old bookshop. The collecting world pleaded with the owner to keep them together, but they were auctioned off and split among numerous buyers. Because collectibles of all kinds have become so incredibly valuable and expensive, we will see more of this in the future. Nothing you can do about it. In my case, the only way to avoid splitting this group up would have been to keep it myself, but since I bought it with someone it just wasn't practical. Hopefully the several new owners will enjoy them.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

I could see why someone would want to break it up. Aesthetically, I don't think it's that beautiful a piece and I think it'd be even less so if it was broken up as someone mentioned earlier about the clipped corners on some of the pieces. But.....I guess if someone pays $38K for something like that, they hopefully know what they're doing.....

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I know of 2 others attempts by a collector/investor that bought unique 1 of a kind groups and attempted to break them and keep a cherry or 2 only to find out that the value of the group far exceeded the individual pieces that made it up. This in not like breaking a t206 set. Once the original pieces of the puzzle are gone it is worth far less.

AND to call them type cards is a stretch, they are CDV's, they were never intended to be marketed as a collectible, but as a keepsake. Whereas in your Kalamazoo Bat analogy they were used to promote a product. I doubt many collectors are searching for a Warren Studios CDV. Apparently the decision by someone at Krause to start including every known and unknown CDV and cabinet card in the guide is driving this idea. You could just buy any Warren studios CDV for a type card.

If buyers of these types of items can't afford to keep them intact they should not buy them.

Scott

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Of side note, William Blake is famous for his poetry books. He illustrated, hand printed and hand colored the books, and no two books are alike. In print making text books and college fine art courses, his books are commonly mentioned due to the unique printing methods he devised.

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Posted By: Richard Masson

I was the underbidder on the group. I really don't understand how someone could bust up this group after they were kept together for over 100 years. Individually, they are a bunch of poor condition CDVs; together they were an important piece of baseball card history. Now that I know the piece is being broken up, I wish I had gone higher.

Needless to say, I have no interest in any individual card.

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Posted By: Corey R. Shanus

Inasmuch as these images are affixed to paper mounts, I wouldn't even call them CDV's but quasi-CDV's. Yet since they are being broken up and sold for resale, by implication they are being regarded as baseball cards. This is quite a progression from earlier discussions on this Board whether even regular CDV's (i.e., images adhered to cardboard CDV-sized mounts and that were clearly not prototypes) should be classified as baseball cards.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

JC, congrats on a great piece. I believe it to be one of the most striking 19th century pieces out there. However, I agree with most in that it loses much of its appeal if parted out.

The CDVs by themselves are a mixed bag (Barry's image at lower res).


With original matte, WOW !!


An 1873 Boston Cabinet, it's possible a cabinet similar to this is out there based on the Warren CDVs.


As a complete collection, it's a strong candidate for your most impressive piece. A CDV or two from it would blend in with your many impressive pieces.

Along these lines, if I or anyone could find Tomlinson Studio's original 1887 "Champions of the League" team composite with each Detroit portrait in full cabinet form, it would be of far more value (to me) as a complete collection than each cabinet by itself. Just my thoughts.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

and put small pieces into Upper Deck cards or something......

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

Thanks for all the comments. The lot has NOT been broken up yet. I have a partner in on the deal. We are not sure what is going to happen on the group. I do agree it is an awsome piece to have the entire collection. However, like the SF Hess cabinets that sold, it is nice to have other buyers have a chance to buy one card to own. Bad example on the K-bats... Shouyld have used SF Hess Cabinets..

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Posted By: Clint

Maybe a hundred years from now the greatest collecting challenge will be completed by someone reuniting all the pieces. JC, make sure you keep the original front and back mounts so this can be done in 2106.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

the Hess cabinets were all made to be kept separate. This piece was a collaboration of smaller pieces made into a single piece. Intended to be that piece. If it were a dozen cabinets in a grouping or set, I could see buying a few and selling the rest. The Alphas, Boston Cabinets or more, I'd understand. But when you pay the equivalent of a 3 series BMW, guess you can whack it up as you see fit. Then you send a KIA here, a KIA there.......

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Joe,

Thanks for posting the pics/scans of this item. Would you happen to have really hi resolution scans of the piece? I was looking for something really hi resolution. Or, just let me know what the best you have is and I'll be happy to take those scans.

Thanks!

Fred

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Posted By: barrysloate

Maybe I can share a few of my thoughts here. This is the kind of thread I usually like to participate in, but always as an impartial third party. Unfortunately, that is not a hat I can now wear. Clearly the piece was made to be kept together; I've speculated that when issued it was constructed to be reshot for a CdV, and I feel that it could be best preserved by leaving the mat in place and framing it. However, I know that today a display piece does not have the cache of a group of "cards".
When I first purchased this I rightly surmised that if taken apart the composite would reveal a group of Warren CdV's. When I received it everything was tightly glued together, and I decided to send it off to my conservator to clean some of the water staining and take it apart to determine whether my CdV theory was correct. What we found were eleven thinned and partially clipped CdV's, not entirely what I anticipated but close to what I hoped it would be. My partner Mark Rucker and I decided to sell it, and about that time my conservator came up with an innovative idea: instead of regluing the whole piece back together, why not take the eleven photos and remount them onto an acid free board in the same configuration as they were originally placed. That way, they could still be matted and framed or easily taken apart if the new owner preferred. Mark and I discussed this at length, and while we realized offering the group as CdV's would prove most lucrative, it could also result in destroying its integrity. But in the way it was offered, it could just as easily have been kept intact. I would be lying if I didn't admit that there was an economic incentive to market these as cards. Now I, as well as others, feel a bit of regret that this piece may be dismantled. But what's done is done, I no longer own it and I have no right to tell the new owner what to do with it. Maybe in the end it will remain as it was, but I doubt it. As I said earlier in this thread, rare pieces in all fields are being broken up today simply because they have become so valuable. Ten years ago the thought of offering this group as a complete team set would have been unthinkable, but the way people collect today has changed dramatically.

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Posted By: ramram

Barry and I exchanged several emails regarding this composite after he and Mark obtained it. He clearly knew that it would have been of greater value separating the parts but, in spite of this, being a true collector by heart and not a speculator he kept them together. Even though Barry is in the auction business, I think it speaks volumes about the fact that he kept it intact. Hope it stays that way!

Makes you wonder what Upper Deck and their prostituting brethren must think of Barry.

Rob M.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Fred, you can find images twice the size and much better resolution than I posted above on Barry's & Hunt's auction pages.

Barry's 1872 CDV Composite as auctioned => http://www.sloateauction.com/




Hunt's 1873 CDV team composite =>

You may be able to get even beter scans from Barry or David directly if required.

Best Regards,
Joe Gonsowski

edited since realizing I could attach full resolution scans here as links.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

This reminds me of the Matty McIntyre Scrapbook auctioned off by Leland's a couple of years back. There were over 600 photos of which half were baseball related. The person that bought the book sold it off piece by piece....IIRC they paid about $3,000 for it and parted it out for at least 5-10 times that amount. Even though I was the recipient of many of the photos I still have a few pangs of guilt that an item of such historical signifigance to the early Detroit Tigers was destroyed.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Joe,

Thank You!