Posted By:
Ryan ChristoffJohn,
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. It definitely ruined the inductions of all of the ones who made it, to a certain degree, because all anyone talked about was one person who didn't get in instead of 17 who did.
Part of the problem was that they didn't create a "pioneer" or some such category, even if it was just for him. The sum total of his baseball life adds up to any easy pick as a HOFer, but this election was supposed to be based on the stats from the $250,000 study the commissioned. They made it clear that certain candidates were executives/managers (Wilkinson, Posey, etc.) and the rest were players. It wouldn't have mattered if they considered O'Neil a manager because that, by itself, is not HOF material.
Buck O'Neil was a good player, but not a great player. There was a list of 94 candidates, of which 39 were selected to be on the final ballot and voted on. I would not have put Buck on the list of 94, let alone the final 39, as a player. As a player, his HOF credentials were not "iffy." They were not close. He was a career .300 hitter, which is good. Not great. But good. Even though part of his playing career came after integration when the quality of pitching and play in general had deteriorated quite a bit from earlier decades, .300 is still good. He also had 13 career home runs and 160 RBI in 1,285 at-bats. Using career totals for batting average/HR/RBI, here is how he compares to other non-pitcher candidates:
ELECTED:
Willard Brown: .351 - 67 - 287
Biz Mackey: .329 - 59 - 433
Mule Suttles: .327 - 133 - 493
Ben Taylor: .322 - 21 - 191
Cristobal Torriente: .339 - 46 - 309
Jud Wilson: .351 - 71 - 485
NOT ELECTED:
Newt Allen: .287 - 18 - 204
John Beckwith: .349 - 77 - 302
Rap Dixon: .315 - 51 - 246
Sammy T. Hughes: .302 - 16 - 113
Fats Jenkins: .324 - 15 - 119
Dick Lundy: .306 - 37 - 297
Oliver Marcelle: .293 - 9 - 144
Orestes Minoso: .299 - 4 - 40
Dobie Moore: .346 - 32 - 201
Alejandro Oms: .318 - 31 - 173
BUCK O'NEIL: .300 - 13 - 160
Red Parnell: .326 - 31 - 224
George Scales: .321 - 66 - 303
I should point out that most of the players with lower stats were defensive players, either 2B or SS, while O'Neil played 1st base.
For comparison, here are some other HOFers:
Oscar Charleston: .348 - 128 - 502
Josh Gibson: .359 - 115 - 432
Buck Leonard: .320 - 60 - 275
Bullet Joe Rogan: .338 - 45 - 251 (a pitcher!!!)
Turkey Stearnes: .345 - 183 - 718
Willie Wells: .319 - 98 - 399
Now that I've listed all of that I need to mention that I think one of the mistakes that was made was having too much emphasis on the stats, which should be taken with a grain of salt as they are not nearly complete. Only "official" Negro League games counted and only ones where complete box scores existed.
Although the stats really just give a rough idea of the players, it's clear that Buck O'Neil was absolutely not a HOF player.
Was he a HOF manager? I say no way. His entire managing career (1948-55) took place after integration as the Negro Leagues became more and more watered down.
As a scout, he signed Ernie Banks and Lou Brock, among others. HOF scout? No.
In 1962 he became the first black coach in baseball. HOF coach? No.
To summarize:
HOF player? No.
HOF manager? No.
HOF scout? No.
HOF coach? No.
Even adding all of those together, I think he is a borderline HOFer, at best.
Now, this brings us to the real reason so many people are so passionate about Buck O'Neil and the one person to blame for this whole mess: KEN BURNS!
Were it not for Ken Burns and his documentary, hardly anyone would have a clue who Buck O'Neil was. But this is where baseball fans fell in love with Buck O'Neil. From there he became the face and living symbol of the Negro Leagues. He became one of the greatest ambassadors the game has ever known. Was he a HOF ambassador? I say YES!!!
Add all of it up and, as I said earlier, I would have voted for him. But if I was a voter, you would demand I change my vote if I didn't vote for him? You said "When the votes came in and he wasnt elected they shouldve rechecked with the people who didnt vote for him and said why didnt you elect him,is it because youre judging him based purely on his playing days,just to make sure they were doing the right thing." Well, they had two days of discussion BEFORE they voted. All of them together. Two full days right before the vote. Four out of the twelve simply didn't agree with the other eight voters, or you or me or the other Buck O'Neil supporters. Whatever their reasons.
Would you have also have asked them to explain why they didn't vote for George Scales, or John Donaldson, or John Beckwith?
I know it sucks and I know people don't like it, but Buck O'Neil is simply not a HOFer. And by the way, who said anything about him getting a plaque? They haven't given any details about what they are considering, although it may be a plaque. But where is the plaque speculation coming from? Even if it's true, having some commemorative plaque hang in Cooperstown as a response to public backlash about your non-induction does not make you a HOFer.
Maybe they will right this situation by having another election for Negro Leaguers including the many others who are equally as worthy as Buck O'Neil, some of whom didn't even make the list of 94, like Gus Greenlee.
As far as Buck O'Neil goes, who really cares about Cooperstown? Will any of us feel any different about him if he's inducted? His life will still have impacted as many people and been just as meaningful either way.
HOF or not, Buck will remain in the hearts of baseball fans everywhere from now until the game is no longer played. And probably long after that.
-Ryan
10-15-2006, 05:42 PM
OT - Buck O'Niel will have a plaque in the HOF
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