Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use

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Posted By: ChuckkieB

The only thing worse than an athelete being a cheater is one that is a cheater AND a liar. Palmiero has been disgraced because he cheated, yes, but even more so because he LIED about it with a straight face. People can forgive a cheat, but not a liar. Barry Bonds is about to be exposed as the biggest cheater and liar of them all.

CB

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

in that they're saying he said the juice made his eyesight better.......I always conceded that the steroids would help the power but always defended Bonds on his great average, figuring that he was still a hell of a hitter. Guess that argument might be lost now if it really affected his eyesight in a positive way as well.......

A big difference I can see between Bonds and Clemens though is that Bonds is CUT....I mean he really exhibits the steroid muscles while Clemens actually just looks quite a bit fatter. Not sure what that really proves but if you look at mid-to-late 1980's cards of both, they were SIGNIFICANTLY smaller as was Sosa and MANY more of those guys.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The Rocket has a pretty big payload...

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Tom,

Clemens is obviously taking the fat building steroids while Bonds is taking the muscle building roids. I don't see Clemens arms bursting out of his uniform and he doesn't appear to have THROWN on a lot of muscle mass in a short period of time. I guess if Roger worked as hard at it as Bonds did then maybe he could become just as big.

Again, I can't wait for Bonds to defend himself, now. Once and for all I just want to hear him say he didn't do it - I'd believe him now, wouldn't you?

As much as a lot of us don't like Bonds we sure like to watch him take his cuts.

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Posted By: identify7

Everyone likes a cheater, well maybe not everyone. But gimme a well planned heist or a good scam as the basis for a movie, and I am happy.

Tell me how Preacher Roe and Gaylord Perry eluded the watchful eyes and plied their trade while using the (evil) spitball. Tell me about the Black Sox, McGraw's antics, Cobb, Speaker and others entering into collusion for throwing games, Franchise baseball, pirating, robbing players, "inconceivable" trades and an endless list of cheating throughout baseball history.

Steroids? Who cares. Get away with what you can, just be ready to pay the price when caught. It is the way the game always has been played.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Over half of the players that have test positive for steroids have been pitchers, yet less than half the roster is made up of pitchers. You all seem to think that because Clemens isn't ripped like Bonds that is proof he didn't juice. All it proves is that you don't need ripped muscles to be a great pitchers. Other thing that everyone says about steroids is that it allows you bounce back from workouts and injuries quicker. Hmmmm, Clemens is a workout fanataic. Just might be that he can continue this regime with chemical aids.

It cracks me up, you guys sit and there defend Clemens as a nonuser with the same arguments you use to make your point that Bonds is a user.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Chris Mc

When Bonds comes down with a steroid/growth hormone type problem (health)it shouldn't be any surprise. Take a look at the home run leaders that you are pretty sure are not taking steroids and compare the totals to players who you think are on it. I now know just how special Ruth and Maris'home run record seasons were.

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Posted By: Anson

I'm not going to beat up or support Bonds as both sides have already been laid out. However, I would like to look at one important thing that hasn't been brought up yet.

Over the years, the perception of sports and competition have dramatically shifted. What used to be viewed as a game has now become big business and tremendous pressure. While Major Leaguers take every liberty to stay competitive and earn the big dollars, a lot of this translates to the little league diamonds too. We've been taught to never accept faliure and to always win....there's no place for second place.

It's certainly not an excuse for cheating or dancing around the rules. Steroid use, whether it was banned or not in baseball, was illegal during the times in question. However, our culture has shifted to the point where we place tremendous pressures on ourselves to always "one up" the other. My friend and I always discuss this issue as it does seem to be a root of so many problems.

It's ok to be satisfied once in a while. Being the best is great but it may not be worth the sacrifice. It's kind of like selling your soul.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

"Steroids? Who cares."

For one, federal prosecutors charged with enforcing the law.

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Posted By: identify7

Anybody Peter, who uses a prescription drug without a perscription is guilty of a crime, I agree. However, persons far less wealthy than Bonds, can obtain a prescription without difficulty.

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Who was writing Barry's prescriptions? I missed that. EDITED TO ADD Even if he (or other players) didn't break the law, to me there is an obvious difference in the level of concern generated by throwing a spitball and using dangerous performance enhancing drugs.

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Posted By: DJ

In a print and media world where news passes, why is that the VBC Forum is the only forum that talks about Clemens being on steroids?

I don't get it.

Jose Canseco made no mention of it in his book and he's been pretty accurate so far.

Because Clemans is a freak at this age and an amazing aging specimen? Since we're passing about rumors, has anyone seen Julio Franco of late? I'm pretty sure he's on one of those 1963 Topps rooie cards with three other fellas.

Four pitchers were suspended last year for steroid use, basically all scrubs (outside middle reliever Juan Rincon and only one starter in Ryan Franklin, a total turd). They basically used the stuff to recover from injuries and I heard somewhere that Rincon gained rougly five miles per hour on his fast ball, and of course, he had no idea he had taken the stuff.

DJ

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Holy crap, I just realized that the biggest freak of them all (when age is being used as a consideration) was Nolan Ryan. Is it time to start a new rumor? Did Nolan take roids or not? Clemens and Ryan are both physical freaks of nature but they don't look anything like Barry.

Not to worry, when Barry clears his name he'll SUE and own S.I. and then he can ensure that everything written about him has a positive spin to it. Wow, Barry Bonds, editor in chief of Sports Illustrated...

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

Nolan clearly was on roids, didn't he have a major rage episode when he put the guy who charged the mound in a headlock? Plus I bet he weighed more at the end of his career than when he started. Plus he was a workout fanatic. That's all the proof I need. Only reason noone has said anything is cuz he's white.

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Posted By: Cat

There is no comparing Clemens' "workouts" versus Ryan's. Ryan maintained his ability to pitch well into his 40s because of AEROBIC workouts...those were commonly discussed and written about. Now, if Clemens is maintaining a similar ability to pitch because of a strict workout regiment, it is NOT aerobic or else he would be working off that extra chin. Now I don't know if Clemens is working out or not, but many on this board seem to think that is the answer to his longevity. Well if he is working out with weights in season and staying in shape in that fashion...there is only one way in which to recover quickly, especially at age 43.

Edited to say: There is really nothing in his physical stature that makes me think that he has any kind of extraordinary work out program...perhaps he is just a phenominal pitcher.

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Posted By: jay behrens

You guys go ahead and live in your deluded little world where Clemens is as pure as the driven snow. I'll continue watch all baseball players under the rule that you hold only Bonds to, guilty until proven innocent.

I really don't care who is usuing and who isn't, but don't kid yourself that the great players of the past 10 years are pure, unenhanced players.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bonds is being singled out partly because he is a miserable person but mostly because he has broken one of the games most hallowed records and is going after an even bigger one. Gaylord Perry admits that he had vaseline hidden on his person but he challenged no records and is lost in the shuffle of mediocre Hall of Famers.

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Posted By: DJ

I think today, you have to be a total "tool" to do steroids and in saying that, I think Bonds 70* will never be touched as you won't see anyone close to 60, and maybe a couple over 50.

It took almost 40 years for a bunch of cheats to defeat Maris' magical season. Hold on! Didn't Maris hit 39 dingers the year before and 33 dingers the year after? Hmmmm...

Was that Clemens in the early sixties on the grassy knoll?

DJ

edit: Ned Williamson was first on roids.

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Posted By: Patrick McHugh

Had to join in. First about steroids do not belive most of what you think you know. Steroids do not make you bigger, eating more calories (FOOD) than you burn makes you grow.There are 165lb powerlifters that are on the juice and you would never know it by looking at there physic. Steroids have been around sports since the early 60's so who really knows who has used and who has not. When HGH is added to the mix look out. That is where the freak show begins, which is what has been going on in mlb for about the last 10 years.In 1998 when sosa mcgwire basically brought baseball back from the dead everyone loved it watched it and enjoyed it. Now the truth about the last 10 years is out, tough to swallow?

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Posted By: David Smith

Everybody likes to play the What if game with Ted Williams as far as "What if he didn't miss 5 years because of military duty?"

Well, let's do the same thing with Bonds, except in reverse. What if Bonds didn't do steroids for 5 years of his career, what would his stats look like??

My guess is his Batting average, slugging percentage, on base percentage, OPS, Runs, Walks, Intentional Walks, RBI's, Home Runs and Total Bases would all decrease. With that said, he probably wouldn't have 7 MVP Awards and his total game would look more like Ken Griffey Jr's.

That would still be a great career and probably First Ballot Hall of Fame numbers but nowhere near what he has accomplished while juiced.

Personally, if I were Commishioner, I woulod set an example and put Bonds on the inelegible list so that he can no longer play the game and is not on the Hall of Fame ballot. They did it to Rose for gambling and lying and they should do it to Bonds.

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Posted By: barrysloate

The 73 home runs was one thing, but I have to admit that when he had that .862 slugging percentage the following year, that was too good to be true. That's just too far off the charts and I don't think anyone could achieve a number like that without some help.

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Posted By: John Spencer

While the answer is, I guess, obvious (putting fans in seats in the ballpark), I wonder if the Giants owners and management couldn´t have done a better job controlling Bond´s more aberrant behavior. Instead they put up with stuff for their "super star" that would have sent most players looking for other teams, eg. building him a separate space in the locker room (now there is great way to build team spirit),his nearly inhumane treatment of the press, fighting with his teammates etc. It seemed that as long as he keept hitting them deep, the Giants would tolerate most anything. And if he did indeed abuse steroids the way it is being portrayed then I can hardly belíeve that the front office didn´t know about it. Perhaps Barry took too many lessons from his Godfather, Willie Mays, who I saw reduce to tears young fans with his disgusting behavior at card shows.

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Posted By: David Smith

As a follow up to my previous post, think of the poor player who didn't take steroids and played out of his mind for a year. He might have won an MVP Award if Bonds hadn't been juicing.

I thought of this when I was thinking about what either Wally Joiner said or what someone said about about Wally Joiner. They were talking about Mark McGwire using Andro (and possibly more) and brought up Joiner. They were saying if McGwire hadn't been on creative substances, Joiner's stats would have looked better and he would have made more All-Star teams.

With players getting bonuses for making the All-Star team, theoretically McGwire took (stole) money from Joiner....

Following that line of thinking, the same could be said of Bonds, except in his case, it would be worse because he stole someone else's MVP Award and that is remembered more in history than an All-Star selection.


David

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Posted By: ERNEST

Barry Bonds is not and will not ever be a Hank Aaron, Babe Ruth are even Roger Marris. We talk about records this and that. I find it just a little unusally that Mark McGwire retired when he did and Barry Bonds sit out almost the intire 2004-2005 season with a bad knee so he says. Look at Hank Aaron what he done 755 home runs (very small player) comparied to these big guys today. Babe Ruth set the standard for everone to follow. Here is my home runs players for a season. Roger Marris (61) Babe Ruth (60), Forget about everone else. Most career home runs (Hank Aaron (755) Babe Ruth (714. Like it are dont't. End of story.

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Posted By: FatPitchers

I no big Clemens fan, but Clemens looks more to me like David Wells than Mark McGwire. If you look at Nolan Ryan, Schilling and Clemens as rookies, and compare them to late in their careers, they all porked-up. Clemens isn't fat like Wells, but he isn't huge like the known 'roid takers.

And the theory that Bonds is somehow being singled-out because of his race and dislike by the media is simply not true. You can span all the colors of the rainbow with McGwire, Canseco, Palmiero and Sosa ... all popular in their day and idolized in the media in their team's cities. Yet they suffer the same stigma as Bonds. Bonds' stigma may be more intense, but that's only because he's the best player of the bunch (and perhaps the most disliked as a person).

And if media dislike is the barometer, then perhaps that's proof Clemens is actually clean. Clemens is HATED in Boston, so wouldn't he have been outed by the Boston media already if they could have done so?

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Posted By: Cobby33

Where were all the critics, do-gooders and the morally-pristine when there were "allegations" of baseball players beating their wives and girlfriends; getting in drunken brawls; betting on the teams they manage and treating their fans like crap?

Whether he's right or wrong, why all the venom towards Bonds? Simply because he, as a player (with or without the alleged juice) is head and shoulders above the other "alleged" offenders? Or is it because he "cheated?" There are plenty of others who have "cheated" on AND off the field, so where are the 74 posts to their follies?

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Posted By: jay behrens

To think that Bonds off the juice would not have won an MVP is laughable. To say his What If career would be Junioresque is also laughable. How do we know he isn't juiced?

Bonds is an incredible hitter, juice or no juice. Steroids don't improve hand eye coordination or help get the bat on the ball. If this were true, the freaks from pro wrestling would dominate baseball.

The current assumption is that most players are juiced. Why would you think that Bonds wouldn't win an MVP if no one was juiced? He might not have won 7, but I'm sure he would have won a fair number.

People's hatred for Bonds is such they will make wild assertations that they would never make about other players.

As for the lame copout that Clemens is fat, so he can't be using. Using steroids in and of itself doesn't give you the body of a Greek god. You need to work out in such a way as to make you body look that way. Look at powerlifters. You won't find a chisled muscle on those guys and most sport some extra weight, just like Clemens. So don't delude yourself into thinking that just because a guy isn't ripped means he isn't using steroids.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Rob

It's a little known fact that that the 1st Olympic competitor disqualified for steroid use was 10,000 meter runner Martti Vaino in 1984. He would had escaped detection if he had not also not been blood doping, adding back his steroid tainted blood. Fact is his steroid use was not to build muscles, but to keep up a running regimen of running 100+ miles a week and not get injured.

The most startling physical transformation of an athlete with banned drugs was Florence Griffith Joyner. Her records from the 1988 olympics haven't been approached. Performance enhancing drugs had to had been widely used in baseball by then. I know I'd take them for the money that was at stake. Drug use in the 1990's simply got highly refined is all, to the point where the super juicers were leaving the clean athletes in the dust, to the point records got obliterated.

BTW, if the Colorado Rockies ever want to win 85 games in a season, they need to have their athletes dope back their own blood during the season. Heck, perhaps Todd Helton blood dopes, everyone else gets ground up during the course of a season at altitude.

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Posted By: jay behrens

You are right about Flo-Jo. She was the female version of Ben Johson, physically. Because everyone loved her, no one dared breath the S word, especially after she died. I was really hoping her family would have come forward and admitted that her early death was due to all the performance enhancing drugs she took. It was great to see Lyle Alzado and John Matuzak step forward about what steroid use ahd done tot hem before they died, but it obviously didn't have much impact.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Paul

I agree that Bonds was a great player before the alleged steroids. I disagree that steroids does not improve your hitting. No player ever that I can think of (except for Bonds) has improved like that as they approached 40 & beyond. That is not natural, & that is not how baseball works.

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Posted By: jay behrens

But if steroids is the simple answer, then why haven't the careers of Canseco, Camaniti and others been extended and gotten better with age? What would we be saying about Nolan Ryan if he played today rather than 20 years earlier? No pitcher, except maybe Warren Spahn put up numbers like Ryan did late in his career and now we are seeing Clemens put up similar, if not better numbers. Are Clemens and Bonds genetic freaks like Ryan, or do you write them off as products of the steroids age....or both? Personally, I think it's both.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Paul

Jay, yes Bonds is a genetic freak, so add steroids to the mix & its magnified. Canseco, Caminiti, & most other hitters didn't have his talent. Also, it depends on what type of injuries they are dealing with.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Jay, not every person has the same reaction to roids. Also, injuries cut careers short that are influenced by steroids due to the increased tension muscle mass places on sockets, bones, etc. Read the excerpt in SI, I did. After reading it, it is clear as a bell that Bonds was a juicer - and a nasty human being as well. I'll applaud when the IRS, US Attorney's office and Congress call him on the carpet and he gets his due.

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Posted By: Cy

Can I bring up one point. Bonds is now being labeled a cheater. My question is this, was it against the rules of baseball to take steroids when Bonds hit 73? (I don't know the answer to this.)

Whether or not it was against the law has no bearing on the baseball records. MANY baseball players did things against the law. Will sombody tell me even if he was juiced, was he breaking the rules of baseball. And when did the rules of baseball outlaw steroids?

Thanks.

Cy

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Posted By: peter ullman

so roger says he's calling it quits after the wbc. any coincidencethis parallels the new BB story?

pete in mn

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Posted By: john kal

Help me out, people. I believe that Major League about a decade or so ago issued a statement to the effect that if a player did something against the laws of the United States (eg. performance enhancing drugs without a precsription)it was also against the laws of baseball. This is to Cy's point. But Cy can't see the difference between Bonds taking a cornucopia of drugs to turn himself into the Frankenstein monster and, say, Leo Durocher stealing signs or Preacher Roe throwing the spitter or having players think he did. On another point: I believe HGH can improve eyesight. One more: I believe that greenies do not boost performance because they raise the standing heartrate which is the last thing you'd want in a workout. You might feel more alert for a time but then you crash. Plus the dangers to the central nervous system. (The football player who died using ephedra would be an example)

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Peter,

Roger must read this this board and now he's scared straight... he figures that if people on this board figured him out, then he's done...

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Posted By: jay behrens

There is enough speculation going here, let's not speculate about what HGH can do unless you have somke rock solid facts. You may as wel speculate that HGH causes humans to once again start growing a tail.

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: Rob

Literally, Tom Hicks won the 1904 Olympic marathon using styrchnine. Regarding the reason why no one will ever provide the details of Florence Griffith drug use: it would call into question the performances of her brother Al Joyner and Jackie Joyner Kersee. Likewise, clean players aren't going to whistle blow on the juicers is because it's going to hurt the game and attendance, consequently the ability to pay their salaries.

Pete Rose's well known use of amphetamines enhanced his performance, the grind of a 162 game schedule, cross country travel and the shift changes between day and night work make that necessary. Pete Rose wouldn't have had many 200 hit seasons and likely had fewer career hits than Tris Speaker without amphetamines. Baseball players before 1958 had an advantage which I've never seen discussed: they played primarily day games as well as having little travel across time zones.

The guy to profit the most from illegal steroid use was Arnold Schwarznegger in the 1970's. If he was getting some 2nd and 3rd places in body building competitions as a clean competitor, he would had got some the recognition to start a movie career, but definitely not the blockbuster movie scripts to become a megastar nor the platform to become governor. Schwarznegger's acting ability is 2nd rate compared to Sean Connery, who was a 2nd rate body builder (undoubtly a clean competitor, a non competitor now if you pitted his 1950's body against bodybulders today).

Schwarznegger has a tight control on his media image, as well as being a Republican. None of those conservative types who cry about the poor example drugged athletes set for the kids will ever admit the ultimate hero for illegal drug use is Arnold Schwarznegger.

Those who warn about the dangers of drug use should accept the fact that the rewards vastly outweigh the risks.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Why is Bonds a "nasty human being," among the other unflattering adjectives that have been used? What has Bonds done to anybody on this Board? Admittedly, he may not be a "media darling" like Clemens (who intentionally and with premeditation, puts people's lives at risk when he throws AT them), but what does not being Mr. Nice Guy 100% of the time have to do with his character? When was the last time any of these critics went to a Giants game? I happen to go to about 40 a year and Bonds is ALWAYS gracious to the fans, smiles, is nice to kids and participates in a variety of charities.

Again, I realize he's no Joe Montana or whomever, but I would reserve judgment if and until he objectively does something "nasty" to you or someone you know.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Bonds is probably like Jekyll and Hyde. He can probably be a nice person but enough people have witnessed his nasty side. I've gone to a lot of ball games in my life. The Padres opened Petco Park two seasons ago. I went to several games in the opening year. I typically show up early because I like to watch batting practice. Before a Giants/Padres game Bonds was entering the stadium grounds and there was ONE person trying to get HIS autograph that day, ONE person. The person was a young man in the Navy. Bonds was walking towards the players entrance and then pulled out his cell phone. The young man told Barry that he was from San Francisco and that he wanted to get his autograph. Bonds' reply was "F_ off, can't you see I'm on my phone". No, this isn't being made up, this is true. Maybe he was having a bad day, maybe he was just being Barry. Bonds creates his own reality. Perhaps he'd be more likeable if he wasn't such a horses ass.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Point taken.
As I said, Bonds is no saint, but neither are any professional athletes. I've had positive experiences with them and negative. I certainly wouldn't try and strike up a conversation with someone who is on the phone, however.

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Posted By: Anson

There are a few "saints" that are/were professional athletes. These guys are the ones that have never had an ounce of dirt or bad press come their way. It's not impossible to be a courteous human being. Guys like Cal Ripken, Tony Gwynn, Bob Feller, Brooks Robinson, etc.. are rarely listed in the bad experience files.

With that being said, this trend seems to be diminishing. There are less and less class acts coming into professional sports. I realize that the media feeds on this stuff more than they used to, as well. But, the attitudes have changed with the paychecks. Somehow, I think these guys have forgotten what got them the big $$$ in the first place.

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Posted By: Cobby33

True.

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Posted By: John Kal

On Mar 1 '91 Anabolic Steroids without a script were banned by the Federal Gov't. On Jun 8 '91 MLB issued an edict forbidding their use under strict penalty (to include being banned from MLB). The fact that the Union wouldn't go for testing does not mean that users after this time were not in violation of the rules of MLB. On this basis I believe Bonds should be exiled from MLB based on the edict of Jun 8. Also, if Bonds never failed a test it was only because he could afford the designer drugs for which there was no test. Is Bonds the only one? No. But that does not excuse him or Sosa or McGuire, etc. as the evidence shows.

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Posted By: Rob L

Since steroids were illegal in the United States without a prescription since at least 1991, they are illegal anywhere. Baseball is not immune to the law. Just because murder is not listed as illegal by Baseball doesn't mean that a player can do it!

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Posted By: Cobby33

This is now getting just plain silly.

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Posted By: John Kal

Cobby, how is what I or Rob L said in our last posts silly?

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Posted By: Cobby33

John: Forgive me for being flippant, but aren't we getting a little carried away?

Trying to compare the use of substances which may or may not be banned by a particular jurisdiction or MLB with those who commit murder is ludicrious

Tracking down people who use "illegal" or "banned" substances other than the obvious hard-core drugs which are definitely frowned upon, has never and will never be a priority to any law enforcement division. This is not much different than saying that ballplayers who travel over the speed limit should be apprehended and arrested. Sure, it's illegal conduct, but is it akin to murder? I don't think so.

Let's let law enforcement and the MLB determine if and how they wish to punish any "offenders" and let's reserve judgment until they do. I'm not holding my breath.

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Posted By: Rob L

Obviously, my comments are meant to be sarcastic in nature. Baseball has chosen to look past this problem until only recently. As far as any of the records that have been set by Bonds, they have to stand. Baseball has decided to look past this issue in the past and will likely gloss over it this time. This just represents another era of baseball: deadball era, liveball era, steroid era, etc. etc..