New Wagner Find

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Posted By: Bobby

While at the show and waiting to talk to Joe from PSA there was a reporter there doing an interview with him about the Wagner card discovered in Chicago. Also in on the conversation was the owner of the PSA 8 Wagner whose name I don't know. The owners of the newly found Wagner had an expert on paper verify that it is from that era, he supposedly dealt with the dead sea scrolls. And an expert on printing verified the printing on the card was consistent with the time period of the make of the card. They are refusing to send it in to a grading company and it will be auctioned soon by a New York auction house later this year. The reporter says they are expecting to get in the $1mil range for the card un-graded. Joe and the PSA 8 Wagner owner thought they don't stand a chance to even get $10,000 unless it is graded by one of the big 3.

Would you be willing to take a chance on such a card that was only authenticated by an expert on Paper and printing?

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Posted By: Josh Adams

Bobby,
I think you know the answer to that question!

Was the owner of the alleged Wagner Harlan Burke? He's a dealer in artificats, and has dealt with old manuscripts. His refusal to send in for a grade sounds like him!

Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: joe brennan

Wasn't there a couple of guys on e-bay a few years ago or maybe last year that claimed they had everyone and their brother (exept the big 3) look at a Wagner and claimed it was from the right time, printing, blah, blah. But they refused to let go of it to have it graded. I remember it had some racial over tones with the story. Is this the same card and group?

A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.
adited for fat fingers

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Posted By: TONY

Unless your a true hobby '"expert"....anyone buying this card ungraded is taking a great chance & just isn't worth it....

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Posted By: davidcycleback

...

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Posted By: barrysloate

For someone with even a little hobby experience it would not be very difficult to look at a raw Wagner and know right away whether it was real. You could miss some subtle restoration but there has never been a fake that would fool a hobby veteran completely. That said, no sane person would sell such a significant card without getting it graded. In the same vein, no sane auction house would take a fake Wagner and try to pawn it off as real. The whole story doesn't really make a lot of sense.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Would a major auction house even accept a Wagner on consignment if it wasn't graded? Sounds to me like there's a ton of liability there, and I can't imagine that between that and all the money that would be left on the table, nobody would.

I sure wouldn't.

-Al

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Posted By: Griffin's

I would think for that level of card it would be worth while for both the auction house and the grading company to fly someone in to grade it.

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Posted By: Jim Clarke

I think the NY auction house is taking a HUGE risk on having this one back fire on them. Are they going to sell is "AS IS"? I'm sure anyone that buys this card would make sure that this card would grade or they get their money back. Even though I'm not caught up in the grading scene, there is NO WAY I could place a bid of 500.00 on it without there being a 3rd party grade on it from the Big 3 grading companies. One of these days I have to get all my cards graded including this one....

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Posted By: Josh K.

lol

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

I wouldn't bid on this card without the carbon 14 testing results. Speaking of finds, the LA Times yesterday said that there are 700 cards in the T206 set. Interesting.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I fully understand that only the grading companies have the capability to determine if a baseball card is genuine. And the Presedential seal with the blessing of the Pope complimented by the wizardry of Merlin will never suffice.

But come on, how mysterious a black art is this really?

" ... an expert on paper verify that it is from that era, he supposedly dealt with the dead sea scrolls. And an expert on printing verified the printing on the card was consistent with the time period of the make of the card".

Get dr cycleback's book and bcd's magnifier and trust in the wisdom of the ancients.

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Posted By: bob beyerle

Didn't one of these BIG 3 "lose" someone's T206 Plank and not want to take responsibility for it? Gee, I can't imagine any reason to not have a six or seven figure card graded.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe, you're correct. The "new" Wagner is a card that was put on ebay last year with about 100 typos in the listing and claiming all sorts of scientific tests which purported to prove its provenance. However, if my memory serves me, the card had been rejected by all of the grading companies (save PRO which was ready to give it an 11-first one ever). I believe some of the articles attendant to this Wagner reported that the owners believed that they were being treated unfairly because they were minorities. I guess I'm sensitive to that claim because we all know that GAI, SGC and PSA are all about denying the black man the chance at a Wagner....

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Posted By: Scot Reader

DELETE

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Posted By: davidcycleback

.

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Posted By: Cobby33

I remember seeing that jibberish that Jeff references as well.
BE AFRAID! BE VERY AFRAID!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

There was the Sienfeld where George and Kramer were walking down the a crowded street in New York City, and Kramer started waving a large denomination bills. George grabbed Kramer's arm and said, "Don't wave money around like that. People will be jumping out of windows to get it."

If a collector waves in the press a T206 Wagner that people think is genuine, there will be people jumping out of the windows to buy it or take it on consignment.

The idea of having trouble finding a buyer for a genuine T206 Wagner is silly.

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Posted By: BruceBabcock

I remember these guys, too. I think they mean well. They are just uninformed and are hoping against all odds and factual knowledge that they have the real thing. I wish they did, but they don't.

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Posted By: mark t

I do believe its the same guy who wanted to be in the room when PSA graded it. They refused him entrance, due to the policy, and he decided not to let them grade it. HMMMM , makes me wonder if this guy is a loser who is trying to make money on reprints or state of the art printers that can duplicate a $1,000,000 card in seconds. JUST LET THEM GRADED IT !!!

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Posted By: fkw

http://reds.enquirer.com/2004/05/23/baseballcard23.html

OK I see that there is a link on the other "Wagner" post to a similar story. Ive seen these 2 guys for a few years now. They are actually well known now for nothing but a fake

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Posted By: Trevor Hocking

I have photoshoped the image a little and from what I can "kinda" see I dosn't look good to me. The top of the card looks way to tall and the looks like the aged stuff on ebay IMO.

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Posted By: BcD

The blue eyes joke gets a solid 9. If only you had the text from that guy describing his Wagner for all to read and join in on the laugh~

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Posted By: James Gallo

The two stories are just about the same.

Why in the world does it say in the article that only 2 are know to exist then later approximately 30-40 are know.

The article contradicts itself. That can't be good IMO.

Honestly if they are really worried about the card being damage they really are clueless.

I also find it funny that 20 years ago some random guy paid almost 2K for a card when he didn't know what it was or what it was worth.

This story has more holes the Swiss cheese.

A fun read though.

James Gallo

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Hey James,

The story isnt written very clearly, but I think it was intended to say there are only two known t206 wagners with piedmont backs. The other 40-50 all have sweet cap backs. I dont know enough about the set to know if this is true or not, but I had always thought the piedmonts were rarer.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

be interesting to see who's stupid enough to buy it.

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Posted By: David Smith

Looking at those two and reading the racial remarks they said, their "attorney" probably did not pass the bar exam. He is probably a street attorney.

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Posted By: Bruce Babcock

This story reminds me of the stories about women who marry imprisoned serial killers - these are people who are not easily dissuaded of their obsessions by the facts.

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Posted By: Scott Mosley

For the low opening bid of $300,000

http://www.bobconnelly.com/honuswagnert206.html

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/1320A-1909-T206-Honus-Wagner-Baseball-Card-by-Piedmont_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28270QQihZ015Q QitemZ250015375445QQrdZ1#la-image-2

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

The seller's case for the card's authenticity is all laid out. If PSA and SGC and GAI disagree with the seller's expert opinion, then the seller will come up with other experts to further substantiate his contention.

What does a lawyer have to lose in this situation?

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Posted By: davidcycleback

That's true, Gil. The seller grades it as a 4 using PSA's sale,
doesn't personally attest to its authenticity, and is selling the
cards 'as is.' If someone wants to spend $300,000+ under those conditions
he or she is free to do so.

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Posted By: Brett

those are such terrible reprints...

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Posted By: barrysloate

Here is the irony of what is likely to happen: these two guys see their Wagner card as a meal ticket that will make each of them wealthy. But what could happen is they sell the card, get the money and spend a good deal of it, then ultimately get sued for fraud and be forced to declare bankruptcy when they are unable to make restitution. So instead of this making them rich, it's likely to wipe them out. This is a story that down the road will have a very sad ending.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry,
I would agree with you your conclusion if the card looked real at all, but this card is a joke. No one will buy this card, and I doubt the auction will even be up that long. I think I could re back a reprint in 10 min that looks better than this piece of junk.

Be well Brian

PS There website is a riot, how many appraisals do you think they've done on Vintage cards?

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Posted By: dennis

i do not think anyone will buy the card. there is also a 17% buyer fee....that should be our new poll will this card sell? http://www.bobconnelly.com/081206/honuslucitefront.html

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Posted By: barrysloate

Brian- I agree that for experts like ourselves we can deem this card a fake on a one second glance. But most people can't. I also agree that this auction shouldn't and very well may not take place. But strange things happen in this hobby, especially when a great deal of money is involved. It will be interesting to see how it unfolds. I feel bad for the owners; it seems they truly believe the card is real (or is this a gigantic hoax?) and they are setting themselves up for a monumental letdown.

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Posted By: David Smith

Seeing the original auctions on eBay and then reading the news article and seeing a picture of the owners did not and still does not inspire confidence.

The reason why an attorney is involved, in my opinion, is that once the card is sold and found to be fake, or not sold at all, is that the owners are going to play the race card LOUD AND HEAVY. Somewhere I think I remember they have already brought that issue up.

Once they have gotten loud and started to get attention, they are going to sue somebody, most likely the auction house and probably settle out of court. So, the fake Wagner might wind up being worth $25,000 or more for the owners.

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Posted By: Brian Weisner

Hi Barry,
I think your "Giant Hoax" scenerio is the most likely reason. I think these guys know the card is fake, but believe there are a few people stupid enough to take a chance. I guess that's why they've become "experts" and have there own website, so they can further there pathetic story.
I noticied they listed the card right in the middle of a large group of graded cards to make it look more legit, but it doesn't look like any of the cards in the group, and why wouldn't your most expensive card be graded. This is the type of thing you see on Yahoo auctions.....


Be well Brian

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Frank Ward has a gallery of real t206 Wagners on his site. Seeing them all laid out next to each other provides a startling testament to the variation in appearance of legitimete examples. Id say card #16 looks more fake than the one offered in this auction.

I do not contend that the card in this auction is real. However, I think that if I was to spend the level of money required here, Id take the trouble to view the card myself. It wouldn't take long to judge a t206 fake.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I've heard this race card angle and it is particularly abhorrent. This is not an issue about race, but about authenticity. If they were lily white it's still a fake. I hope this whole thing just goes away.

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Posted By: Paul

I've got a question for our printing expert, David. The seller claims that a printing expert has determined that this was printed using appropriate printing techniques for the early 1900s. But the card is obviously fake. Is the seller's printing expert out to lunch? Or was it printed using a technique available in the early 1900s and also still available today? It sure looks like a bad photocopy, not even a professionally printed (Dover) reprint.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'll bet you anything it is a modern reprint and no affidavit of testing even exists (or if it does it is as fake as the card).

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Posted By: Cat

Barry:

This is the report that Connelly had a link to in his website. I am not sure what it says but it does appear that they had older cards and postcards tested at the same time to confuse the issue.

http://www.bobconnelly.com/081206/IPSReport.pdf>

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't know what this paper testing is all about because I think the reprint is modern. Why would the card have been reprinted before 1915? I would guess nobody at that time was aware the card was rare, and the market had no need or use for a reprint. Nothing that comes out of this story makes one bit of sense (except the greed part).

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Posted By: davidcycleback

...

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Posted By: fkw

The easiest way to tell, the lack of a black line around the picture area, the gap between the "G" on uniform, the bottom button and the border. The caption is too condenced (notice the gap between the "R" and "P" is far too close.

The pictures I have collected, (my page with 18 different Wagners) were all taken in different eras, with different cameras, scanned with different setting etc. Thats the main reason for all the different variations in colors and qualities.




BTW Im working on answering the ton of emails I have (scan requests/card orders/etc.)

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Posted By: Paul

I should have looked at the so-called printing expert's report. It would have answered my question. Here's the link.

http://www.bobconnelly.com/081206/SchwedReport.pdf

Note his qualifications -- a total of 3 semesters at various junior colleges and an unspecified amount of time working as a printer's apprentice. Also, he draws the remarkable conclusion that the card was printed on a sheet of paper measuring 13" long. What kind of equipment was he using to measure the invisible cards that are no longer present?

Lastly, to answer David's question at the top of the thread, yes this Wagner has blue eyes. At least that's what the report says.

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Posted By: John Barnes

Don't the corners of the card look a little too sharp for how dirty the card is??
http://www.bobconnelly.com/081206/honuslucitefront.html

JOhn

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Posted By: Seth B.

Check out the last two pages of that printer's report for how not to apply for a job. That is the worst looking CV I have ever seen, ever. Hands down. If your education includes some random seminar in Rochester on technology, might at least not want to type "TeclinQlogy." Wow, what a star expert; I'm surprised he was enough of an expert on paper to load a printer.
This just stinks of fraud waiting to happen.