reprints on ebay

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Posted By: david poses

doesn't this look like a reprint?

http://cgi.ebay.com/1909-T206-OLD-MILL-TY-COBB-BAT-ON-SHOULDER_W0QQitemZ300012118760QQihZ020QQcategoryZ8 6840QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

ty cobb and "detroit" look like the wrong font. can anything be done about this sort of thing?

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Posted By: leon

It's a poor fake. You can report them to ebay and it might get taken off....The seller has good feedback so may be unaware....regardless, it's not even a good fake....regards

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Posted By: John S

I think these types of scam auctions are far less dangerous than ones in which the fakes are started at a reasonable price. The ignorant and gamblers are more apt to take a chance when the bidding is lower. It is difficult for ebay to regulate this type of activity, buyers must take every precaution when purchasing.

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Posted By: david poses

i just sent the seller an email. i am new to t206 collecting and am not happy about this. if he doesn't respond to me and i see it posted tomorrow, i am tempted to report it to ebay. is there anyplace i can buy ungraded t206 cards without worrying about being robbed? mike wheat seems to have the best selection with the best prices in the best condition. anyplace else like him? i read in a few forums that he can be trusted. is there any other place online?

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Posted By: John S

Check the B/S/T thread. I just sold a handful of T206's/T205's last night. Write the sellers and ask for references.

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Posted By: Anonymous

john, are you the seller? it's not that i don't trust your references- you obviously have stellar feedback- its this one card i have a problem with- if a million people all love your other cards, i believe you- that doesn't make this cobb real.

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Posted By: Seth B.

Hey David,
Don't think John's the seller. Looking at this guy's other stuff, I just don't think he's into vintage and may not know the card is a fake.
There's other reliable dealers online for T206s. But I do agree with John, B/S/T is a great place to pick up real cards, and you can generally ask someone to provide references. People on this board aren't dealing in fakes. Post a "WTB T206" on the T-card link, and I wouldn't be surprised if you got too many responses. I occassionally have some T206s to sell myself, so I'll keep you in mind.

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Posted By: david poses

thanks for the clarification and tip. just figured out what b/s/t was.

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Posted By: leon

I know you are new here so you might want to read the forum rules and check out our site for a few days to see what's going on. The BST pages stand for Buy/Sell/Trade....and there's a link at the top of the front page to get to them. It's still caveat emptor but about 99.999% of the folks are good people to deal with. You won't get stuck with a fake from the BST pages and if you did I am sure whomever made the mistake would make it right.........good luck and welcome aboard.....regards

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Posted By: John S

David,

Read my first post regarding my feelings towards fakes on ebay. What gave you the idea that I was pushing the Cobb card?

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Posted By: David Smith

In the listing, the seller says the Cobb "is the only one out there" and that the buyer should get it graded to make it worth more. If this is the case, then why doesn't the seller get it graded so HE can make more money??

Also, by stating "it's the only one out there", doesn't that infer the seller knows its a fake?? I mean the guy knows about grading services and seems to know about Cobb cards and different factory backs, so the only reason NOT to get the card graded, if it is that rare, is because the seller knows the card is fake.

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Posted By: david

john- my apologies. i barely had any coffee in me when i read your post- being new here and undercaffeinated, i thought you were the seller and that you sold some t206 cards on ebay, and that i should check the b/s/t on ebay (keep in mind that i didn't know what b/s/t stood for when i read your post, and am also new to ebay) about you for references. total mix-up.

i seem to have become one of those douchebags who post on boards before they know what they're talking about. i am usually the one to set them straight- sorry again.

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Posted By: John S

Not a problem David, just wanted to make sure that you understood how I feel about fakes. This is the place to be to share and learn about vintage cards.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...that I've shared a few times.

The reason raw cards are often cheaper than slabbed cards is because of the risk they hold. People are willing to pay more (yes, sometimes lots more) for the peace of mind that SGC provides that a 60/EX/5 is a card without creases and that it has not been trimmed. If you purchase a card on ebay that a seller describes a EX, you run a larger risk that the card has creases or is altered (or even fake) than if you spent the extra dough on the SGC graded card.

Can you make shrewd collection decisions with raw cards, thereby saving yourself hundreds or even thousands of dollars? Absolutely. But the best way to do that is by purchasing raw commons in VG or less condition and becoming intimately familiar with the type settings, borders, color distribution, paper quality, etc. And, mind you, even for the experts, whether a card has a wrinkle or a side shaved is not always apparent until you get the card home and give it a really good look over. Though I am not an expert, I have amassed 520 cards of the T206 set, and I usually feel pretty uncomfortable buying raw unless the card is in VG or worse condition and/or under $50.

In short, if you have to ask whether the Cobb that you shared in your first post was real, you are not ready to own an authentic Cobb yet. Do your homework before making a significant purchase like that -- even if you ultimately decide to purchase a Cobb card graded by SGC.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

David P, most reprint T206s on eBay look like reprints in the scan. With
real T206s, your concern will be with grade and trimming-- so dealing
with experienced collectors/sellers is important.

Someone legitimate selling raw cards should have a strong authenticity and
return policty. Many sellers of fakes don't guarantee the authenticity (for
obvious reasons), or even state that the item is authentic, and have
poor return policies if the item is bad.

When dealing on eBay, you will figure out who are good sellers, through
personal experience and/or word of mouth. Many of the folks on this board
are good sellers.

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Posted By: Joe Drouillard

I've only been reading these posts for about a month, but I've increased my knowledge of the hobby 100 fold. The last posting by T-206 collector really struck me, because it runs contrary to some advise that I just got last week. I was in Cooperstown for the induction ceremony and went to a card show on the main strip. I met a seller who had over 200 T-206's for sale. His advise to the beginner was to find someone who has been in business for a long time and who has a good reputation and buy raw cards from them. Then have them graded. He said an honest seller will always stand behind their cards, so if a card is trimmed or fake they would always provide a full refund.

He then went on to advise that a beginner should always buy the most expensive card that his budget could afford to take advantage of future increases in the value of the cards. He seemed quite certain that the market on T-206's will never go down.

I only own twelve T-206's and I'm sure about half of them are trimmed because I bought them on eBay auctions and they seem a fraction short. I was feeling bad about that until I read T-206 collector's posting and realize that if I want to understand the hobby I'm going to have to make mistakes and it's better lose twenty-dollars on a card then thousands.

I wouldn't mind hearing a few more opinions on how to build a T-206 collection.

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Posted By: david

very curious as to how everyone got started. ideally, i want to assemble a binder with pages- of the t206 set (minus honus). i am a purist, but i am also pragmatic and don't want to waste my money. is it ridiculous to buy graded cards so i know they're authentic and untrimmed, only to break them out of the slab and put in my binder? i know this likely kills the investment aspect, but i am much more interested in collecting in its purest form than psa numbers.

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Posted By: Zach Rice

You're not alone about the slab cracking, many do it, including myself. I like being able to flip through a binder and view my cards versus sorting threw a giant stack of slabs. Plus, it allows you to be able to feel your cards and get an idea of how certain issues vary in thickness, amount of gloss on the surface, etc. You also can't smell your cards when they're in a slab You'd be suprised at cards scents vary. I have an E97 that smells of mold, and a cracker jack that smells like a flowery perfume.

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Posted By: joe brennan

David, I know of another collector that has recently cracked out his T206's. He may have started a trend. . I started collecting the set a year ago, but only after finding this site. I spent hours pouring over all the posts about T206's, visiting the many links provided here and then and only then started purchasing cards. I bought some mid grade raw lots to see how they felt and looked up close and personal. I then started buying mid grade, graded HOFer's. I was and still am more comfortable buying a slab HOFer. There are deals out there raw, but for the little extra money, knowing the card is not trimmed or altered is worth the piece of mind. Most sellers know they will get more for a graded card so they grade them themselves. 120 of my 127 are graded and I will continue in this direction. That's the way I started. Joe

People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: T206Collector

"He then went on to advise that a beginner should always buy the most expensive card that his budget could afford to take advantage of future increases in the value of the cards. He seemed quite certain that the market on T-206's will never go down."

No one knows whether the market on T206's will ever go down -- in the short term anything is possible and in the long-run we are all dead. But, my point was really just about getting familiar first with cheaper cards before moving on to the big game. I definitely think that ONCE YOU ARE ABLE TO EASILY IDENTIFY FAKES it makes sense to acquire big dollar cards first, because I have been burned in the past by waiting to pick up some HOFers when I should have acted. But, again, this assumes that values will always rise, which, again, is just about never true of anything.

"I only own twelve T-206's and I'm sure about half of them are trimmed because I bought them on eBay auctions and they seem a fraction short."

Believe it or not, short has nothing to do with it. There are plenty of short, but unaltered T206 cards floating about. What you are looking for is:

a) uneven cuts on the borders -- a scissors will never cut perfectly straight;

b) bat ears on the corners -- you'll know this when you see it;

c) even wear along all four edges when you hold the card on its side so you cannot see the face or reverse -- if the edge you suspected was trimmed is a nice even white, while the other four look like greying/toned ripples (as best as I can describe it), then you have a trimmed card;

d) An SGC grader once told me that you can see the edges are rounded when they look right, and straight when they are trimmed, but I've had a hard time identifying this one in person.


In short, don't feel bad until someone in the know gives em a real close looksey. If you want to send me some scans of the fronts and backs (pmifsud3d@gmail.com), I'd be happy to give you a very preliminary opinion. But, of course, scans can't tell even half the story.

"I was feeling bad about that until I read T-206 collector's posting and realize that if I want to understand the hobby I'm going to have to make mistakes and it's better lose twenty-dollars on a card then thousands."

That's my whole point. Why burn a grand on a fake Cobb when you are just getting into the hobby. Sure the market may go up a little before you are ready to dive into Cobb and Matty, but you'll save yourself more money in the short run if you take some time out to learn about the cards.

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Posted By: david

joe, i took the same approach- devoured everything i could read and then bought. i feel good about the decision to unslab. zach, are all of your t206s out of slabs right after you purchase them? my strategy is a bit different than most others i've read, and i hope i don't end up screwing myself by sharing- i don't care about the hof'ers. i am operating under the assumption that in 1910 people were more likely to save a ty cobb anything than, say, some minor leaguer nobody ever heard of. because i want a set and don't really care about condition, i am focusing first and foremost on the scarcest cards. there is always a graded cobb on ebay and even if the price goes up, up, up, i would rather have a mullaney now and spend 2k in 10 years on a cobb than 1k on cobb now and be begging everyone for a mullaney in 10 years and find myself offering ludicrous amounts of money for some minor leaguer nobody ever heard of. sort of like how everyone and their mother has an 85 topps clemens, but how many people will have an authentic vern rhule in 100 years?

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Posted By: T206Collector

...my approach. I will tell you that I wish I had bought that Cobb Red back or Young with Glove or Young Bare Hand waaaayyyyy before I started spending hundreds on commons. I figured the Cobb Red back is so easily obtainable, I'll just wait it out. Well, it was one of the last cards I needed (along with those two Youngs), and I paid hundreds for beaters of all three -- the same money I perhaps could've bought a VG 3 with when I got started less than 10 years ago. Still, given the prices of commons these days, I suppose the price on those has gone up quite a bit as well and so perhaps its a wash.

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Posted By: david

did the prices of these cards ever suffer like the cards from 60's, 70s, 80s and 90s?

why do you think the price keeps going up up up?

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Posted By: David Smith

Maybe the seller reads this board....

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Posted By: Joe Drouillard

Thanks David, Joe B. and T206 Collector and anyone else responding to these postings. I appreciciate your advice. I sent scans of my six short T206s through email for his opinion. I know I speak for all the novices to this board when I say that you guys are a great help.

Best wishes,

Joe

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Posted By: T206Collector

...things were a bit sluggish or stagnant in the 1990's. When I got back into baseball cards a couple of years after college in 1997, I recall T206 prices being about the same as they were in 1987 when I was knee-deep in Topps and Donruss cards, but had a friend who collected vintage stuff. With the advent of the internet, these things just took over.

You should get a copy of Scot Reader's T206 manuscript. I think it is available on T206museum.com, and other on-line sources. It is free and about the best T206 read going. He has some good explanations for the rising prices of T206 cards.

Ultimately, my opinion is that there are peaks and valleys in every market over time. If people always knew when the top of the peak was and when the bottom of the valley was then it would be very easy to live comfortably without much work. T206 cards are going up because there is a perceived lack of supply to meet current demand. If either of those curves change, price will change along with it.

I am amazed at the numbers of new T206 collectors that have been entering the market. I would guess that many of the collectors love baseball cards, but got tired of the glossy crap that was worth something upon issuance, but decreases to pennies on the dollar over a short time frame. These people want to keep collecting cards, but want something with a sustainable value. Vintage cards offer this and until someone figures out how to make modern cards valuable again, I think vintage will always offer a unique market in baseball cards.

But I think that it is very easy to imagine a world where baseball decreases so substantially in popularity that pieces of cardboard showing players on it would also decrease substantially in value. I also think it is easy to envision a world where the US economy takes a major hit and people do not want to spend cash on baseball cards which hold no inherent value. It is also a bit scary to think of all the money people in China or Russia spend on baseball cards -- i.e., zero -- and consider a world that is growing globally. Even if you include the Japanese and Dominican baseball influx, do today's Dominican kids want cards of Ty Cobb, who discriminated against minorities, or of the heroes of today?

In short, it would take a paradigm shift to cause vintage baseball cards to plummet in value. But it is not hard to imagine any number of scenarios where that would be possible. For example, in September of 1998, the popularity of Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa was unprecedented. What changed in the world -- in baseball alone -- that caused their popularity to drop off so significantly? There were those, I am sure, that could have predicted such a dropoff for one reason or another. But in 1998, it was anyone's guess. Vintage cards are subject to the whims and fancies of an ever-growing and developing American populace. Where the world will take those interests is anybody's guess.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I doubt prices will rise forever, but if a collector is
knowledgeable about T206s, follows prices and purchases
his or her cards for at fair prices, he's doing as well
as can be reasonably expected. Half the the job in investing
is buying at a good price. If the prices go up, you can
still lose money if you overpaid or bought a faulty product.