So who's going to pony up for Pete Hill?

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Posted By: ramram

Mark -

Many people that consign establish an unseen reserve, for their item, at a price at which they are willing to sell. I don't see this as any different.

Rob M.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Mark

The fair market value of any collectible, almost anything for that matter, is determined solely on the price someone is willing to pay for that item at that particular time. The process is entirely subjective and values are constantly changing. There are no laws or ordinances that dictate what something is "worth." It is entirely a free market when it comes to this stuff.

Not that I have any interest in defending Ryan but I am not sure I understand your logic. If the card does not sell for 200k plus the hammer then we can conclude that the item is not worth that right now, maybe ever, contrary to what the consignor feels or thinks.

Greg

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Posted By: jay behrens

eBay is not the perfect free market analytical tool. All is does is show you what the market value is, onne bid incriment higher than the second highest price someon is willing to pay. As a buyer, I like that. It means that I don't have spend the maximum amount I willing to spend on an item.

Before eBay is something of a guessing game. Set a price high enough that the card will not be sold immediately, but within a reasonable amount of time.

When I used to do shows, I'd put items from my personal collection on the table all the time. Items I had no real interest in selling, I would silly prices on. Evenw ith silly prices, once in awhile some items would get sold. I used to own a 1951 Millers jersey #24. Sadly it wasn't Mays' as he wore a different number. Still, I liked the jersey and people thinking it might be his. I had it at a show in San Fran. A guy asked my how much I wanted for it. I said $2500 and the guy didn't bat an eyelash. I told him it wasn't Mays' jersey. He said he didn't care. He wanted it so he could lie to his friends that it was Mays'. The jersey was worth maybe $150-200 at the time.

Right now, I wouldn't sell my Thorpe for any price. When was the last time an m101-5 Thorpe was sold?

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home, I would be arrested. So, I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: JimB

I agree with Greg. Ryan is under no obligation to run his auctions in the same way Mastro or REA do with low minimum bids. He may or may not be making a wise business decision, but it is his choice. I don't follow the market in the cards he specializes in so I really don't know. If he is willing to put that kind of minimum bid on an item because that is what the conisigner wants, that is his perogative. And if there are consequences from that, he will deal with them. My suggestion to offer a much lower minimum bid earlier in this thread was based on limited knowledge and the presumption that the seller was eager to sell the card. THat does not seem to be the case, at least not at a price under 230k.
JimB

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Posted By: Mark

Greg - I don't believe I said there are any laws or ordinances mandating Ryan set his minimum prices at or below fair market value. I was just suggestintg that (i) he may want to point this out since it's different from what other bb card auction houses do; and (ii) as a buyer, it's frightening to hear him say I might buy a card from his auction and only recoup pennies on the dollar. Just my openions. But hey, it's America..and it's caveat emptor.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Mark,

For the most part, your understanding of the situation is correct. I'll try to address some of the points:

As far as the minimum bids in my auction bearing absolutely no relation whatsoever to my assessment of fair market value, which items are speaking of? If you're talking about the Pete Hill, it's a waste of time to discuss "fair market value" since it's a one-of-a-kind card and cards like that are worth what they sell for. You are correct that if someone paid $230k+ the winner might realize a mere fraction of that if they tried to flip it on ebay. If you are thinking about bidding on the Hill in order to flip it on ebay for a profit, I would strongly recommend you reconsider your strategy. My guess is, if it sells it will be to another collector who plans to keep it. The only reason I don't own the card myself is that I cannot afford it. Is it "worth" what the minimum bid is set at? In my opinion, yes. I realize there are only a handful of collectors that would agree with me. Most, like you, will consider this an outrageous price and voice that opinion by not bidding on it. Oh, and also by posting about it. Yes, many will voice that opinion by posting about it.

If you're talking about another lot, let me know which one.

Regarding me permitting consignors to set minimum bids, that is also true. That's the only reason you and other collectors have the opportunity to own the Pete Hill. There are many HOF collectors out there. Those who are trying to obtain one card of every player in the Hall, need this card. One of the reasons it was so important for the card to be in this auction is that there is a card of EVERY single Negro Leaguer in the HOF who has a card. Every one of them. There has never been an auction even remotely similar to this and for this to happen, Pete Hill had to be there. Every HOF collector may complain that the price is too high, but they can't complain that they never had a chance to complete their collection. One collector could knock EVERY Negro Leaguer off their list in one auction.

I realize the other auction houses do not generally allow their consignors to set the minimum bids. But I do. At least for this auction. Once the auction descriptions are up you'll be able to see exactly which items are on consignment and which ones are mine. If you need a warning that I operate fundamentally differently from other bb card auction houses, consider this to be that warning. That's not a bad thing, by the way.

I'm not sure what you would consider to be "fair market value" for a Cabanas Pete Hill, but if it's less than 200k and you're hoping to pick one up, just wait for one to pop up on ebay. Then you can pay "fair market value" for it.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Just out of curiosity -

What would this Hill card be worth if he wasn't in the HOF? What was the valuation on the card 1 year ago?

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Posted By: David Vargha

Pete Hill . . . The black Bid McPhee of the card collecting world.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Peter_Spaeth

I don't see why it's Ryan's or any seller's obligation to tell potential buyers what they think a card is worth. This in my opinion is a completely honest transaction: here is the price, if you think it's worth it, bid. Seems a lot more straightforward than the practices of hidden reserves, running bidders up, not disclosing material alterations, not disclosing authenticators' ownership interest in consigned items, etc.

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Posted By: Chad

I regret the way I started it. I just wanted to talk shop about the Negro League cards up on Ryan's auction and was using the Hill card as a means of starting the conversation. Clearly, that was a mistake. I hope it doesn't deflect attention away from the fact that it's an amazing collection of cards up for grabs. Lloyd, Charleston, Willie Foster!, etc. Great players and great cards.

--Chad

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Posted By: leon

I don't think it was a bad idea to start this topic/thread. Anytime a high profile vintage baseball card comes up for auction it is fair game to talk about. I think some of the explanation that Ryan gives is excellent. We all, including myself, have some cards we wouldn't sell below a certain price. Actually, I have no issue whatsoever about the way the auction is being handled. It's up front and out in the open. There are many major auction houses (dare I say "most") that let folks bid on their own items, and if they win, they pay the vig and keep the item. I am sort of on the fence about it but, since someone else could bid for you anyway, lean towards being upfront and stating it's ok. Again, I don't really think it's ok but otherwise we just have a deception game. ....regards

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Everyone assumed that I was "accusing" Ryan, which I was NOT.

All I was doing (and am still doing) is asking for an answer to my question:

Does ANYONE know for sure of an instance where someone bought their own card (either directly or through a friend) and REALLY PAID the juice just to get their own card back -- in an effort to raise attention, market price, etc.??


OR... LEON, are you saying that some Major Auction have hidden reserves, where the auction house itself will bid up the item and if it does not sell, give it back to the owner??

If so, what is in it for the auction house? Just the possibility that it will sell and they will get juice.

In THAT case, it is MUCH DIFFERENT and is definitely illegal shill bidding.

I don't think it is illegal or unethical to pay to get your own card back. Why would it be?

Dumb, maybe, but why "wrong"?

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Posted By: leon

I am not saying auction houses bid on items. I am saying that I have been told by principals of some of the largest auction houses that I could bid on my item and if I win it I will pay the buyers vig. I get kind of an ambiguous feeling about bidding on my own item...that's all. Like I said before it's probably the best to just make it public that it can happen rather than pull an ostrich act and stick your head in the sand ....

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Posted By: Steve

I don't think it is illegal or unethical to pay to get your own card back. Why would it be?

Mr.Lewis,

Earlier you stated that it could be done to establish a market in a card. Thereby influencing a 3rd party to think it was indeed 'worth' X In this way IMO I feel it would be unethical. Not illegal.

This exact sort of stuff has happened on ebay many times.

As for the Pete Hill card it is worth 200.000 to the owner as that is what he is willing to sell it at. What it would sell at in various forms of auctions is anyones guess.

Steve

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Good Points Steve and Leon.

Can I make it CLEAR that Leland's is NOT allowing me to bid on the Reccius Wagner and that I would NOT do so anyways??

I need the money for lights for my son's High School baseball field.

Having a card that now has a "set market value" won't let them play any games at night!!!!





PS - They just finished the season. Here are the stats for the first-half (second half not complied yet):

http://www.maclaybaseball.com/jvstatistics.htm

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, perhaps you can buy your own consigned item if you win the auction -- but what if you don't win the auction and you only serve to drive up the final price?

Hal, do you know of any instances in which a consigner has done that? Forget someone who won his own auction -- do you know anyone who has bid on their own item and DIDN'T win it?

And Hal, while Leland's won't let you bid on your own card, what would stop you from having a friend bid on it for you?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Jeff:

I guess nothing stops me from having someone bid on the card... except that I would have to pay 17.5% just to get my card back...

and... with a card that rare...

everyone would know that I still own it and the whole thing would become pretty obvious.


PLUS... like I said a while ago... the current bid is WELL BELOW what I paid for the card 2 or 3 years ago ($65,000)...

so if I was bidding on it, I'm not doing a very good job of shilling!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hal, I hear you, but my question is not what would prevent you from winning your card back, my question is, what would prevent you from bidding up your card through proxies - without winning it back? And I don't disagree that if you were shilling you'd be doing a pretty bad job of it as of today, but what if you suspected there were no bidders that bid any higher than what it is at now?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I don't get your question.

Are you asking me what would prevent me from having a friend bid up my card and then HOPE that someone else will outbid my friend in the end??

I don't see how anyone could do that and NOT still face the risk of BUYING BACK your own card if NOBODY bids at the end?

Again, I need the money for a pet project, and the whole high school baseball team is anxiously watching the auction and rooting for their lights!!

Thus, if I did not have 100% intention of getting rid of the card, I would have just kept it and sold something else for the money.



BUT... I guess there is really NOTHING in ANY auction that can detect when a bidder is actually interested in an item or whether he is simply bidding and buying it because someone asked him to do so.

Even at a live art auction at Sotheby's, couldn't a consignor hire an independent bidding agent to go and bid up a painting for him?? Nobody would know who the consignor was, so it would work.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

But anywhere here who is considered a friend of mine is WELCOME to go bid on it NOW!!!

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Posted By: Harry Wallace (HW)

As far as I know Sotheby's is the only auction house that allows hidden reserves on items. I can see why it is done for million dollar paintings, but it seems silly for baseball cards. Plus it confuses bidders who think that they are bidding agains another real person. Instead they are basically bidding against the consignor's reserve.

If you are not going to set a low minimum bid and let the item sell for what the market dictates (like REA, Mastro's, etc.) thein I personally like the way that Ryan is doing his auciton. At least you know the actual reserve. If I was interested in the card, it would piss me off to see the card see the bidding start at $5,000 and then find out it did not sell because it did not meet the hidden reserve.

I was not aware of any of the hobby's major auciton housses (REA, Mastro's, Leland
s, etc.) that allow the actual consignor to bid on his own item. But they certainly cannot stop you from having your next door neighbor (or hobby friend) bid on the item for you as long as you are willing to pay the fees on both sides.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

To bid on an item this large, I suspect, however, that the 3 Major Auction Houses would require the person to show a lot of credit applications, hobby references, etc.

This would rule out me having my neighbor bid on the card. The drunk would actually have to leave his sofa to mail the application, so that would rule him out.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

LET ME BE ABSOLUTELY CLEAR:

There is NO HIDDEN RESERVE on my Wagner.

I want cash, not card... so PLEASE bid if you are interested.


I know that there are at least 7 people out there who at one time or another were the "High Bidder" on the card... so after the auction they can vouch for the fact that they were not "Outbid" by some "Max Bid" thing the minute they placed their bids.


Again, if I was going to "shill"... I would have two different hobby friends bidding the card up to AT LEAST what I paid for it by now.

Right now, I lose $20,000 if it sells... so obviously this is NOT happening.

NOR is there any RESERVE. If you want it, please go get it and enjoy it.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

PS - Andy Baran can vouch for the fact that I paid $65k to him as the "sales agent" for a mystery seller several years ago.

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Posted By: andy becker

i feel compelled to keep reading this thread.....more drama than the sopranos.

jeff, you asked this of hal....

"Hal, do you know of any instances in which a consigner has done that? Forget someone who won his own auction -- do you know anyone who has bid on their own item and DIDN'T win it?"

i obviously do not know this for a fact, but i really assume that this goes on all the time. why wouldn't it?

also, i will add that i have never consigned anything to a major auction house.

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Posted By: cmoking

what is going on in this thread? all of a sudden it's turned into an ad for Hal's Wagner?

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Posted By: Chad

Has anyone gone and actually looked at it. Forget the Pete Hill for a minute. If you have any interest at all in Negro league stuff, it's just really cool to see all those cards in one place even if you're not/can't bid on anything. The Cool Papa Bell postcard and the Mallorquina sheet are just awesome. It's overwhelming, actually. I love it.

--Chad

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Hal, you do seem to protest a lot. Perhaps you can take a polygraph test and post the results on here? I know the former head of the FBI's polygraph division; he can be in Florida by the end of the day with his machine.

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Posted By: James Feagin

I have often looked at his auctions. However, my finances have never really jived with when his auction is conducted. I think many of us think these cards are unique and interesting, but otherwise don't really know what to think about them. I like Ryan's auctions, but like them even better when there are some more attainable cards out there. IMHO, a good auction has a high/middle/low-value tier so everyone can be a part of it. For the record, "low-value" is less than $100 in my book.

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Posted By: Cat

For the sake of fair play, I did put a bid on Hal's card and was high bidder for about one day (maybe two). Unfortunately Hal, I am done bidding since I have a few cards in REA I need to make a run at.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

King,

Should that really shock you?

Greg

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Does anyone know the Hill card valuation 2 years ago, a year ago and right before he was given a pass to the HOF?

Ryan, you're probably one of the few people that can answer this question. Do you know the last transaction price on this card?

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Thanks, CAT.

Sorry to hear you are out of the bidding!


Jeff: I am protesting about as much as someone who might lose money would be expected to protest, I guess. If I were shilling, I wouldn't have a care in the world.

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Posted By: leon

Therein lies the problem....hypothetically I bid my card to xxxx and am the underbidder....the "winner" has lost some cash. There is no way to stop it though as I could also have a hobby friend do it for me. Back to the Pete Hill card. I don't blame the consignor one bit and applaud the open reserve concept. regards

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Leon, agreed; that's why the policy of not allowing consignors to bid on their own lots is somewhat specious.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Leon:

Do you know if the Major auction houses ever do this (allow sellers to set their own very high reserve)??

I quite frankly relied on Leland's to set the "minimum bid" for my card, as they have more experience in the "psychology" of selling things than I do.

Do you think Mastro would have accepted the Reccius Wagner for their auction if I had told them to set a minimum bid of $100,000?

I can't remember anything with the big auction houses ever starting that high... and if it did, it was something clearly worth a ton more.


It seems sort of a Hobson's Choice if someone is supposed to use a Major Auction house to sell because they have great reputations... but then the process of setting a hidden reserve is blasted when the small auction houses do the same thing (but in the open)?

I guess what you are saying is that someone who really does NOT want to sell but will sell only if the "price is right" is out of luck if he wants to use one of the Major auction houses?

Or not, I just don't know their practices as well as other might?

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Hunt's does (or has done) it...........I have attended a couple auctions where bidding went on and then the lot was not sold due to some behind-the-scenes reserve. Right or wrong, I think most any auction house (save REA per their own statements) would likely take a card valued at $100K with an open reserve (or maybe even unopened).

Publicity is everything for these guys. Average lot price, # lots sold, % lots sold, # lots above $10-$20-$50-$100K, etc. Statistics are what drives them. Whether they intend to go public (some have previously done this) or just hype the next auction, those type of lots are very important. And there are houses that will allow consignors to bid on their own lots I believe.

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Posted By: leon

To answer your question(s)I am not sure it's a "yes or no" answer. If your question is "Do auction houses allow the consignor to set their own reserve?" Technically, I think the answer is no. However by letting the consignor bid on their own item (yes, as I said there are at least 3 major ones who have said I could) aren't we doing the same thing....just covertly? Why all the games? I like what Ryan has done for that very reason. I could even see doing it with at least one of my cards if I ever sold it....For me I like to know where I stand on stuff. I know the Pete Hill WILL sell at 200k + the commission. To me that's far better than me giving a card to Ryan's company and then having an agreement to let me bid and win it and pay the juice on it....again, to me it's the disclosure I applaud...Also, I am not saying the auction houses are doing anything illegal or unethical but it is a slippery slope...I am a customer of almost all of the ones I am thinking of so have no moral issue with it....It's an interesting debate.....regards

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Posted By: Cobby33

I sell a lot of items on eBay. According to eBay, I am not allowed to bid on my own items, even if I intend to pay myself after winning it. My wife, who also has an eBay account, is not allowed to bid on my items, even if she intends to pay me for them. The same applies to online auctions.

If someone wants to set a high reserve and the auction house allows this, great. If not, you take your chances and if you get low-balled, that's one of the perils of listing a card in an auction. I've dealt with it, as I'm sure many others have.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree.

If I had been "worried" about getting back 100% of my cost on the Wagner...

I probably would have lobbied harder for an "Opening Bid" of $65,000.

Granted, I fully expected (and still expect) and hoped to get at least that much...

but if the market does not bear this out, then all it means is that I overpaid in the beginning.

GEE, HOW MANY TIMES HAS THAT HAPPENED!

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Posted By: Cobby33

Tell me about it!
We've got our fingers crossed!

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Posted By: E, Daniel

To take but ONE part of this thread, while it could theoretically work to have someone you know bid UP an item you are selling - just so you could be sure of buying it back if it didn't meet your reserve, or to set a "market" price for it, there seem to be some pretty big ramifications.

First, on a $230000 transaction, the consignor would have to move that amount of funds into his "buddy's" account so that it could be paid for..........not sure how the IRS and Bank Manager would feel about that......and the whole thing starts to look like money laundering to me....

Secondly, if the consignor wants to maintain the charade after the sale, he will also still have to front up to the IRS man himself and come up with the capital gains tax amount accrued by "selling" the item.

Thirdly, as Hal suggests, then trying to sell it later becomes enormously problematic and the consignor certainly couldn't use the same auction house, or probably any of the big auction houses as the ownership trails of such cards become almost as important as the card itself.

I'm not sure the concept really works on large ticket items, and even on smaller items through ebay regular/serious collectors tend to lock away an image in their minds of cards that are interesting - and who is selling them..........not hard to get a really bad reputation that would sink your ability to work with the 'players' in this community who keep alot of the cards moving between hands and creating real demand and inflationary prices.

Anyone agree?
Daniel

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Posted By: Chad

Man, I feel like I'm in one of my Patriot Act seminars at work. I know there's a lot of money at stake, but the cards are way more interesting. Aren't they?

--Chad

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Chad, could you supply a link to the auction site or just give me the name of it? I'm not aware of who Ryan is, though everyone else on the site seems to be, and do not know which auctions he runs.....

Thanks so much.
Daniel

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Posted By: Ben

http://www.cubanbaseballauctions.com/auction.asp

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Posted By: Chad

That's the link. If you link to the old auctions, the descriptions will give you a pretty good background on Latin American cards.

--Chad

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

No doubt about it.

Ryan's auction is chock full of GREAT cards!

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Posted By: Sean

Looks like it also has a ghost of Pedro on the back...I think it's cool, 230k cool???

Good luck Hal, I'm pulling for you, it's good to see the money is going towards a worthy cause, but if you need other worthy causes, I'm one.

Sean BH

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Fred,

Yes, I do know the last transaction price on the Pete Hill card. I won't give you the exact number, but I can tell you it was substantial, even though it was many times less than the minimum bid in the auction.

I can tell you this much, the current owner paid WAY more than ANYONE else on the planet would have at the time. In fact, if I was auctioning the card back then and started it at the price he paid for it, this exact thread would probably have taken place, just with different numbers. Actually, people would be more outraged at the price because back then there was never any talk about the realistic possibility of Pete Hill making the Hall of Fame. I've always thought Hill should be in, and the current owner felt stronger than me, but that's not why he bought the card. He bought it because he's a collector and that's the price he had to pay to get the card, regardless of what the "fair market value" was at the time. Had he sold it on ebay shortly thereafter he would have gotten a fraction of what he paid for it. I probably would have wound up as the high bidder for less than half what he paid for it, maybe a lot less.

I don't see this as being any different than when you go back and read hobby publications from 30 or 40 years ago and you can't believe people were complaining about having to pay $10 for a T206 Cobb. The current owner of the Pete Hill paid a "crazy" price to get it. I guess it wasn't so crazy after all, just ahead of its time.


Rhys,

Esteban Prats was indeed a great ballplayer. So was his brother Miguel. I don't believe either are worthy of being considered legitimate HOF candidates, but something I will never be able to explain is the fact that neither of them are even members of the HOF in their own country!!! Esteban played from 1889 to 1910 and Miguel played from 1888 to 1909. Part of the problem might be that there are no stats for the greater portions of their careers, but they still should both have been no-brainers for the Cuban HOF. Both of them were definite stars and among the top few players of the era. I really like that team photo from Matty McIntyre's collection that you won when it was on ebay. They didn't mention Esteban Prats, but he's an easy one to identify. Do you still have it?

Okay guys, you can continue discussing Hal and the Wagner. Sorry for hijacking the thread and talking about something other than Hal's defense of his non-shill bidding and the greatness of the Reccius Wagner. Back to the regularly scheduled programming.

-Ryan

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Posted By: E, Daniel

You're a scholar AND a gentleman.
Now I had better go and learn a little about, well, stuff I don't know about.

Daniel