Terribly unethical practice on eBay???

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Posted By: DRY

Hi all,

I am just wondering for your thoughts on a practice on eBay that seems to be more and more prevalent. It involves people buying nice looking vintage PSA 5s and 6s cards (50s-era Mantles, star cards, etc.), cracking open the slaps, and selling these cards raw as pristine cards for sale.

I am really upset at this practice, especially because it is so deceitful. This is especially true when they say "hi grade" and are able to offer a money back guarantee of the cards being untrimmed and unaltered.

Here is the perfect example of a seller who does this:

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQfgtpZ1QQfrppZ25QQsassZsteveandmary1971QQssPag eNameZSTRKQ3aMEFSQ3aMESOI>

Here is a graded card they bought:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=55922&item=5243571256

and here's the same card cracked out of the holder for sale:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8733441433

Please let me know if you are as upset about this as I am.

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Posted By: tbob

Dry- That is unusual, normally you see cards bought raw and then slabbed and sold, not vice-versa. I don't see the problem here, though, because the guy might think the grading company undergraded the card and it is nicer than the grade. Just goes to prove the old adage mentioned here so often, "buy the card not the holder."

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Posted By: DJ

Wow, it's funny to me for some reason. It's the complete opposite of the way things are usually done and this is the first time I have seen it. I'm curious to see if that 6 goes for more than $130 now with two days left. Totally bass-ackwards to me.

DJ

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Posted By: Damian

I am surprised you zero'd on the '60 Mantle AS. At least we know its legit. Maybe undergraded and maybe not. Seller's choice to crack and sell. No foul there in my opinion. A couple of his other cards looked trimmed to me. I am more concerned with those. Either way, there are much more unethical practices with cards on Ebay. Don't make it right, but this hardly shocks me.

Damian

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Posted By: barry arnold

If the seller takes a slabbed card graded 5 or 6 and then calls it pristine
(immaculately clean,untouched,etc.)then veracity is compromised. Compromising
veracity in this context is unethical, from the standpoint of the classical principles of ethics.


Barry

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

I think people are mixing up issues here. No one is 100% positive that this is infact the same card. It is possible and it would not be surprising. That being said, proof is not derived from an opinion.
Speaking of 'opinion', what does veracity have to do with anything? The seller is stating an opinion, not a fact. Veracity has nothing to do with it. Although I'm not a lawyer, I would consider this a case of due diligence/negligence. For that matter, it is only a case of due diligence if it is in fact the same card. I believe him withholding facts that are material to the sale would be considered unethical.
I don't have a problem with the author having an opinion that the card is high grade. I do have a problem with him withholding pertinant information, even if he does believe the card was grossly under graded.

Regards,

Black Sox Fan

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Posted By: Brian Daniels

it's the same card~



100% positve

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

I actually don't think it is...look at width of the borders.

Regards,

Black Sox Fan

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Posted By: quan

there are a couple printer dots on the raw card that is not on the slabbed...but i agree it is unethical to crack out a psa5 and selling it as NRMT.

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Posted By: Rob

And not the same card slabbed as a "6". The card being sold has a corner ding on the back and a print dot on back not present on the slabbed card.

Seller has good scans, if you think you can get it in a PSA 6 holder, you could make some money at the price it's at right now.

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Posted By: Mike H

Look at the lower left border of the PSA card. It is very narrow and slanted down to the left. The other has an almost even border.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

It's definitely not the same card. The Topps copyright line is much closer to the bottom border on the slabbed card.

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Posted By: Josh K.

I agree - not the same card. It looks like the seller upgraded and is merely selling a duplicate.

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Posted By: Jimi

Definitely not the same card. I noticed the border differences and that was before I read that everyone else was seeing the same issue.

Jimi

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

wow ... people are agreeing with me... something in the water today guys?

Regards,

Black Sox Fan

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Posted By: Jimi

Sure, why not, Tom....errr...Ted....errrr....

Jimi

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Posted By: jay behrens

Ted, I'll attack you if it will make you feel better :-p

Jay

I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

BRING IT ON!

Regards,

Black Sox Fan

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

"buy the card, not the holder"

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Posted By: DRY

I think people are missing the point here. Yes, this isn't a very expensive card, but this dealer has sold very expensive cards in the past.
All you need to do is look at his/her feedback rating, and see what this person is buying (only PSA 5s and 6s) and selling (the same exact
cards ungraded, described as pristine). Perhaps this 1960 Mantle AS is not an expensive card, but certainly others are. They are making huge margins on unknowing buyers. And this is the exact card they bought graded. Just take a look at what they've sold/bought if you don't believe these are
all the same cards.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a scam.

And here's another dealer using the same practice (look at his feedback, people are starting to catch on):
Here's what he bought:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=55917&item=8726519271

And here's what he's selling:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=55917&item=8733505344


Shouldn't we try to do something about this? Maybe put together a blacklist of sellers who engage in this practice?

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Posted By: DJ

I wouldn't classify this as a scam. Scams are those sellers who sell reproductions as authentic. Scammers don't mention that a "trimmed" card was rejected by a grading company. Scams are issues that don't exist but he cut up a newspaper and gave it a funky, invented designation. Scams are graded cards in basement made grading companies that slab anything high. Scams are people erasing the "S" off a Snodgrass. Scams are people simply reproducing cards on high tech copiers. Scams send out cards that differ from the advertised card. Scams are those who try and sell what they don't own. I could go on...

Is this guy being dishonest? Maybe a little but as many has mentioned above, buy the card, not the stupid holder. Who is to say that the winner of this Mantle sends it in and gets a 7 or 8 next time? I once saw a "6" turn into a "7" in a month.

DJ

edit: grammar issues.

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Posted By: Scott Thompson

Ethical problems on Ebay? I'm stunned! Stunned, I say!

I just hope that poor women who has been forced to sell her husband's baseball card collection on Ebay because he had a heart attack can find some peace and solace during the upcoming "non-offensive winter holiday period".


Scott

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Posted By: Chris

I don't think it is a big deal. If we are going to constantly preach buy the card and not the slab then how can this be SO terrible. The bottom line is it is the same card and the bidders can decide what they want to pay for it. They could have had the same card in the 5 holder. But it is the same card. It hasn't been altered. The seller has clear scans of both front and back and an accurate description. Is this far off from buying a card and crossing it over for a better grade?

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Posted By: pete

definitely not the same card for all the same reasons mentioned...either way, i no long buy ungraded cards unless from a dealer/seller i have dealt with before or they have a "zillion" positive feedback...especially cards from the '50's-'70's...i believe they are easier to make fakes than the older vintage stuff

my best pitch was the one that made it to the plate!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Having not compared 'before' and 'after' prices, I would think a seller would be a taking financial chance doing this. Many to most eBay buyer's aren't going to take the seller's word that an ungraded card is high grade. When someone offers an ungraded 'Mint' 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle eBay, the average eBayer's thought will be, "Yeah, right, and I'm the King of Prussia."

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Posted By: Josh K.

This is a joke right - who in their right mind would get so worked up about this. People buy cards all the time with the goal of flipping them for a quick profit. Granted, most buy raw cards or graded cards that appear undergraded and resubmit them. If they get a higher grade and dont reveal that it was once in a lower holder is that dishonest - I dont think so. Sellers who crack out of slabs and sell hoping that they will get more money are taking a chance IMO - but frankly if you buy a raw card relying on a seller's claim that its mint without examining the scan closely, you deserve whatever you get.

Finally, the first pair of card are NOT the same card. The second set you cant tell for sure one way or another.

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Posted By: Steve K

This has been going on for a while now. And yes it is unethical in my opinion. But just stick to buying graded cards and you won't have to worry about it.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Unslabbed cards generally sell for lower prices on EBAY no matter what the seller's hype is. Cracking cards out and selling them raw is a money-losing proposition.

Frank