T206 Rare Backs

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Posted By: William Heitman

It doesn't matter how long he was with each team or what potential backs may exist. I can tell you that, after collecting T206 for 50 years and handling thousands upon thousands of the cards, the Kleinow, Boston, is decidedly more difficult to find than the New York variety. That view is shared, I believe, by every collector of T206 that I've ever known and every person who has ever written about the set. I wanted to make a comment about the Ty Cobb back. T206 is not one set of cards, it was more a designation of a style of card. That card's style is that of T206 and it has fit nicely into the catalog's designation. If you remove it from T206, then, probably you should divide T206 up according to Series, or brands, or whatever else would be logical. That would really screw everyone's checklists up.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

YES!

You tell 'em, Bill!!

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Hal,what does it matter to you if its considered a T206 or not? Until someone finds one with a front other than the Cobb red portrait then i'll never agree it was more than a special card made for Cobb brand tobacco and probably not printed at the same time as the other t206s because ive never heard of a sheet containing just one player.To me that doesnt fit the criteria for it to be considered a t206 anymore than a t213 card does

Also alot of people on the board who keep track of numbers of times cards show up will disagree with your Kleinow assessment. In fact we've seen many counts at different times that indicated the NY version was harder to find and it wasnt done by just one individual.So i find it very hard to believe the Boston version could be decidedly more difficult,slightly more thats possible because youre more likely to sell a card with a higher book value so it might show up more but numbers dont lie.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Because poor old sweet Tyrus does NOT deserve to be an orphan!!

He belongs in the T206 family with his 4 brothers: Greenie, Baton, Batoff, and Red.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Well maybe the next poll on the board can be just that question. Is the ty cobb back a real t206? Hal,seeing as you live in Florida,you cant be trusted to vote on your own, so youll have to send in one absentee ballot to our main offices(Leon's igloo)

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

John

Sorry to disagree with you, but most of us "old-time"
T206 collectors view the Ty Cobb back as a unique card
that was issued separate from the entire T206 series of
cards.

It's hard to argue with guys like Bill Heitman, Mark Macrae,
Larry Fritsch, (and I will add myself) who have handled 10's
of thousands T206 cards over many years; and, support this
theory.

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Posted By: leon

I am in the John camp on this one but admittedly don't know a lot about T206, in particular. I do have a fair knowledge of type cards though. I haven't held a raw Ty Cobb Cobb back but if I am not mistaking they have a glossy front like T213. How do you T-Rex's explain that, since T206's don't? nice friendly debate by the way....regards....your resident dictator

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Posted By: Anonymous

This certainly isn't the first or even second thread that has discussed this topic before

http://www.network54.com/Forum/153652/thread/1084846506/last-1085096599/Why+Cobb-Cobb-

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

LEON

Far from my intent to try to convince you to change your
thinking; however, consider these factors:

(1) The front is glossy....and anyone who has seen this
card in the RAW can attest to this. There is NO T206 that
has this type glossy front.

(2) Look closely at the back of Hal's card (posted here), it
has a Factory #33 on it. This, too, is unique to this card.

I am sure someone will jump up and correct me if I am wrong,
but NO OTHER T206 back bears this Factory #.

Mark Macrae and I have discussed this card over the years
and the prevailing theory in the hobby is that this card is
somehow connected to the T213 (Coupon Cigarettes) issue.

Regards....the "original" T-Rex Ted

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted wrote.....
John

Sorry to disagree with you, but most of us "old-time"
T206 collectors view the Ty Cobb back as a unique card
that was issued separate from the entire T206 series of
cards.

It's hard to argue with guys like Bill Heitman, Mark Macrae,
Larry Fritsch, (and I will add myself) who have handled 10's
of thousands T206 cards over many years; and, support this
theory.

I write....

Ted,you arent disagreeing with me if you feel this way and you arent agreeing with Bill Heitman.T-Rex has gone crazy again

I totally agree with the thinking its a unique card and never stated otherwise,it was Mr Heitman who disagreed above.Not only that but Leon was agreeing with you and I and then you disagreed with him.No wonder why dinosaurs are extinct,that couldnt even agree with themselves

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Posted By: leon

Unless I missed something John, yourself, and I are arguing on the same side of the debate team? I think it's a seperate issue, other than T206, but maybe wasn't clear.....

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Posted By: JudgeDred (Fred)

Did I just run into a political debate?:

John: ....Until someone finds one with a front other than the Cobb red portrait then i'll never agree it was more than a special card made for Cobb brand tobacco and probably not printed at the same time as the other t206s because ive never heard of a sheet containing just one player....

Ted: John, Sorry to disagree with you, but most of us "old-time" T206 collectors view the Ty Cobb back as a unique card that was issued separate from the entire T206 series of cards.

Leon: ...I am in the John camp on this one but admittedly don't know a lot about T206, in particular. I do have a fair knowledge of type cards though. I haven't held a raw Ty Cobb Cobb back but if I am not mistaking they have a glossy front like T213. How do you T-Rex's explain that, since T206's don't? nice friendly debate by the way....

Ted: LEON, Far from my intent to try to convince you to change your thinking; however, consider these factors:

(1) The front is glossy....and anyone who has seen this card in the RAW can attest to this. There is NO T206 that has this type glossy front.

(2) Look closely at the back of Hal's card (posted here), it has a Factory #33 on it. This, too, is unique to this card.

I am sure someone will jump up and correct me if I am wrong, but NO OTHER T206 back bears this Factory #.

Leon: ....Unless I missed something John, yourself, and I are arguing on the same side of the debate team? I think it's a seperate issue, other than T206, but maybe wasn't clear.....


In conclusion, I agree the Ty Cobb back isn't part of the T205 set, er, or was that the T213... whatever you guys just said...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

John

I misunderstood you this AM....didn't have my 2nd coffee....or must of had

a "senior moment" (I just turned 67 on Nov 5th). In any event, I'm sorry.

But, John, in my defense, you have to stop using all those double nega-
tives in your sentence structure. Try to simplify what you are saying. I
first read your comments quickly. Now, upon carefully re-reading what you
stated, I see that we agree on the Ty Cobb back.

Leon
Since you "dittoed" what John said, I thought we were in disagreement.
And, since I realized I first missunderstood John's post, I must say I
am sorry to you, too.

All that being said, if I understand John's contention (in the same post)
that the Kleinow variation (Boston) is easier to find than the (NY) one;
then I must strongly disagree.
John, I am about to complete my 2nd T206 set....I have seen many 1000's
of T206's (since the Paleolithic Era) and the NY version is certainly more
plentiful. If you are using Ebay as a "barometer" of what is rare and what
isn't, I think you can be misled.

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Posted By: Scot Reader (ebay: sreader3)

For the record, I am a T206 collector who believes Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) is tougher than Kleinow (Boston). I have discussed this with a few others and know I am not alone in this view. In the 14,000+ transaction T206 survey I conducted on eBay between 2003 and 2005, there were 16 transactions involving Kleinow (Boston) and only 11 involving Kleinow (N.Y. Catching). This left the N.Y. version tied for 26th and the Boston version tied for 64th in terms of difficulty. I realize this is not an irrefutable sample but neither is it trivial. I don't think the relative difficulty has much to do with series--some T206 subjects are just more difficult than others.

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Posted By: William Heitman

I'm sitting here looking at my copy of the American Card Catalog published in 1960. Its managing editor was J.R. Burdick and its associate editors were Charles R. Bray, Woody Gelman, Charles C. Barker, Preston D. Orem and Edwin R. Payne. It was billed as "The Standard Guide On All Collected Cards and Their Values." It was, in my view, an attempt to group cards together in order to make some sense out of it all and to aid collectors. That was easy in the case of groups like R319--a set defined in and of itself as 240 cards with the same design. (Even that is interesting since the #106 in that "set" wasn't issued until a year after the other 239) But the simple thing is that there was a time when the makers of cards (not just baseball cards, by the way) didn't make that task very easy. So the ACC people decided to give numbers to cards in the way they collectored them. They grouped them, when a set designation was anything but clear, by styles and eras, sometimes combining the two. They saw some type of patterns based on the way these things had been collected up to 1960 and the catalog number they assigned had only to do with collecting habits--not science. In truth, there is no such thing as a T206. It is a number assigned to a group of cards, probably published all in or about 1910 and all having similar characteristics. The "T" stood for Twentieth as in 20th Century. T213 they saw as distinct from T206 because of its inclusion of Federal Leaguers and they felt quite comfortable designating this as a distinct "group" of cards. We, in this hobby, have chosen to use the numbers given to groups of cards by the American Card Catalog. Nobody at Kinney Tobacco did that for us when their Sweet Carporal cards were issued and no one in 1909, 1910 or 1911 put out a checklist of those cards they were issuing. In the listing for T206, the ACC includes the Ty Cobb back. So that's what it is. It just happens to be one of the backs listed as falling into the group the editors called T206. If it doesn't fall in there, then you can call it whatever you want. But you should know that until the publication of the ACC, there was no such thing as a T206. While it's sometimes difficult to understand why they did things the way they did, we card collectors were thrilled to have a way to group these cards together. You want to tear this apart, be my guest. Come up with a better numbering system. Make the grading services rich when T206 ceases to be and everyone has to have those silly little white bordered cards circa 1910 reslabbed to suit the new numbering system. Why is the Ty Cobb back a T206? Because the creators of the designation T206 threw it in there.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted about the Kleinow catching with Boston and New York. I did say if the Boston is harder to find its only slightly harder and thats not going just by ebay and what ive seen but also the opinions of board members who put the set together one by one and upgraded as they went along.I believe the high price on the Boston card may bring out more of them but i also see more of them compared to the NY version so that leads not only me but countless other board members to come to the conclusion that theyre about the same as far as toughness.

My whole contention was with the wording Mr Heitman used to describe their difficulty saying "the Kleinow, Boston, is decidedly more difficult to find than the New York variety." Many here disagree with that thru their own personal experiences.

I dont call myself an expert but i put together a t206 basically one card at a time over a 13 year period and easily looked at 50 cards for every 1 that i bought during that time,amd thats besides also talking about and reading about the set,before,during and since i finished(which im really not because i have about 25% of a 2nd set done besides collecting printing errors and "freak" cards).So im not exactly a rookie when it comes to these cards,just dont want you to get the wrong idea when you converse with me about the set,unless the idea you get is i have too much time on my hands,then youre correct.

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Posted By: Robert {Bigb13}

I don't know if the monster is really to accurate? It state's that the Demmitt St Louis comes with one of five possible backs. I don't know about you guys but the only one I have seen is the polarBear back. Rob

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scot

I guess I am outnumbered here with regards to the relative scarcity of
the Kleinow variations. But, both you and John are using Ebay as a measure
of this and I am saying that you can be misled doing this. I am going by
what the SCD and Beckett Guides have shown for the past 25 years.

As you know, the Boston version is priced at least 5 times greater than the
NY version. And, this pricing for many years has reflected the relative
scarcity of these two cards with respect to each other. As a dealer for the
past 25 years, I have seen many T206 wantlists that have been consistent
with these Guides. I don't see anything that would cause a sudden reversal
between these two cards.

There is another factor to consider here; and, that is Star, or higher priced,
cards of any given set will get more exposure on Ebay (or at shows) simply
because that is where the money is at. The NY version of Kleinow catching is
just a common card in this set; and therefore, does not get the "respect" or
the visibility that a Boston one would, nowadays. Unless, of course it is a
PSA 8 or better. And, that would be my explanation as to why you are seeing
more of the Boston cards.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted,its more than just me and Scott who have said this,its been mentioned many times on the board over the years.I also dont think the price guide is accurate for the Kleinow Boston and that can be seen on ebay when you compare its prices realized relative to its price guide listing with any other cards.Your last point is right tho at least in my thinking when you said(and im not quoting)that its a higher profile card,so theres a better chance of someone selling it.

I believe there was a logical reason why its listed higher so i do believe it could be slightly harder to find than the new york version but theres no way if you took their overall population and combined them that the NY version would make up over 67% of it(which means it would outnumber Boston 2-1).I would agree with 55/45 but from what ive seen over the years the Boston version just isnt that hard to find.

this is my signature

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Posted By: William Heitman

Monster page 7, at the bottom "The only break in the patterns I have ever found is the Demmitt, St. Louis American, card, which has only been found with a Polar Bear back. I suspect that a Demmitt, St. Louis, with a "350" type of back will be found someday, but I am not aware of any. Demmitt played only 10 games for St. louis in 1910, and I suppose it is possible that most, if not all but one, of the manufacturers failed to place him in their "series" for this reason."

The checklist in The Monster did not purport to be a checklist of every known card. It was a theory and a checklist of the possibilities using that theory. Of the group of toughies that Kleinow, Boston, has been thrown into ever since I began collecting T206 50 years ago, I've always considered the Kleinow, Boston, to be one of the easier to find. We didn't do "population" reports, but I think it fair to say that relative knowledge of scarcity didn't start with either grading services or ebay.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Ted,

Using the price guides as a reference to how for the last 25 years years does not always hold up. Ebay has opened up more cards to the market those there is a possiblity of some so called scarcities showing up because there are actually more in the hands of people now selling.

I have collected the T202 set and I can tell you that the 2 so called scarce commons in the set are not that there are other that are tougher then those 2 cards.

More new cards hit the market all the time and change scarcity, a good example is the large amount of UZITs found in the one collection.

Lee

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

LEE

There is no argument that Ebay has proven that there are
no rare cards out there, sooner or later even what we used
to think was really rare, shows up on ebay.

Now, take this discussion on the two Kleinow cards. On any
given day there are approx. 1000 - T206 lots available on
ebay. Today, if you search Kleinow you will find that there
are 3 - Kleinow's (catching). Two are the Boston version
and one is the NY card. Are you going to tell me that this
small anectdotal sample tells us that the Boston card is twice
as easy to find as the NY one ?

No, you know better than that. Just as the Price Guides are
not the final word, either. But, for the most part they con-
tain data that is very representative of the relative value
of most catalogued cards, because this data is the result of
many collector and dealer inputs over a long period of time.

I choose to place my confidence in the findings of long term
hobby veterans like Burdick, Carter, Nagy, Lipset, Heitman
and many more that have contributed to create this catalogued
information. And, its not like it was created 30 - 40 years
ago and has not been updated since. Just ask Rich Klein of
Beckett or Bob Lemke of SCD, who are constantly updating their
respective Guides as most of us provide new information to them.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Bill Heitman

In you earlier post on this Thread you have identified 47
DRUM backs, which I presume you have, or have seen over
the years. That is really amazing. I have one which I won
on a bet with Barry Sloate back in 1985. And, have seen
less than a dozen in all these years.

Its also very interesting that you note that Kleinow (Bos-
ton) is the card most likely to be found with a DRUM back.
And, coincidently in these prior posts we have been discus-
sing this very Kleinow card.

But, I'm curious....the DRUM backs are only in the 350 Series,
which seems to be the plentiful source of the T206 cards, then
what makes this back so difficult to find ? Limited printing ?

Also, theoretically how many more different T206 cards exist
with a DRUM back other than the 47 you have noted ?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Hi Ted,

What I am about to say does not refute your general point, but actually there are THREE Kleinow (Boston) and ZERO Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) auctions on eBay right now. The auction being advertised as Kleinow (N.Y. Catching) is actually a MISENCAPSULATED Kleinow (Boston) specimen! Take a look at the front scan.

http://cgi.ebay.com/T206-RED-KLEINOW-NY-CATCHING-PSA-5-EX_W0QQitemZ8726663186QQcategoryZ31718QQssPageName ZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scot

Call me a "dinosaur", or whatever, it's things like this that turn
me off on the Grading services. There is absolutely no excuse for
these kind of mistakes. If they are not professional enough to cor-
rectly label a Graded card then its anybody's guess what the quality
of their actual grading is like. They just shouldn't be in business.
I have several PSA encapsulated mistakes such as this one. They are
the only Graded cards I have kept intact.

Scot....Now, 3 - Boston Kleinows vs. No NY ones does not tell us much
in this particular narrow "window" in time.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Ted look at Scotts timeline above that spanned over 14,000 ebay transactions,how long is long enough for you in this case?


Heres a count for you:

Scott kept count for 2 years and recorded 16 Boston and 11 New York,if you check the links section for all the dealers there are 10 boston and 2 new york versions,ebay current and recently completed auctions shows a count of 5 boston and 2 new york and i have 2 boston and 1 ny.To me that shows 33 for Boston and 16 for NY and thats a pretty big sample.

From that count i take that Kleinow NY is just as tough but since its not a high book value less people will bother listing it.If the count was even over that large sample id agree that the Boston is tougher, but shows up more because of its value but this count is 2 to 1 in favor on NY being tougher to find.

My conclusion from all that info above plus talking to people who have recently put the set together 1 by 1, makes me believe theres no way possible Boston is decidedly more difficult as stated above,and if you ask some people they think NY is the tougher variation.I dont believe it is personally, but im sticking by my estimate of their population being within 10% of each other(basically, if there was 1000 of these cards in existance,no more than 550 would be new york versions).

I havent seen proof besides a price guide that shows me Boston is that tough that it deserves a high value or is harder to find than its NY counterpart.The higher prices attributed to the card can be explained by the price guide listing rather than actual rarity

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Posted By: Anonymous

Ted,
Agreed that PSA should be more careful. I have a PSA 5 Magee (With Bat) in a Magie holder. The thing that I find most disturbing about this is that the PSA pop report shows that there is one PSA 5 Magie in the population when in reality there is not. That said, I think PSA (as well as SGC and GAI), despite occasional errors, do a tremendous service for our hobby. They weed out much of the fraud and also provide a uniform--albeit imperfect--grading system. This will stimulate long-term demand for our beloved vintage cards. [Let's remember that SGC is not infallible, either. I recall that they once graded a Matty Portrait Red Hindu (an impossible front/back combo) that was re-backed, as well as grading the infamous fraudulent Doyle N.Y. Nat'l that Olberman bought.]

John,
Agreed that the Kleinow (Boston) is only slightly more difficult than the Kleinow (N.Y. Catching). The larger number of Kleinow (Boston) seen on eBay is in part attributable to its higher book value. I think there are fewer Kleinow (N.Y. Catching), but the difference is not stark.

Scot

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

John

I tried to change the subject to DRUM backs. To me the
mystery of why these are so scarce is certainly more in-
teresting than Mr Kleinow. But, you guys wont let go.

Now, here is what we know about John "Red" Kleinow....in
May of 1910 the Highlanders sold him to the Red Sox. So,
the T206 designers quickly changed his team; and, printed
him in their 350 and 460 Series of cards. The NY version was
only printed in the 350 Series. But, by no means does that
tell us that Boston should be more plentiful than NY.

Nor does Scot's survey. And, I say this because I would bet
that the majority of these cards in this survey were Graded.
I think you can appreciate it (and indeed I think you said it
yourself), that Ebay sellers are overwhelmingly likely to get
graded and put up for sale a star card or a higher priced var.
T206 as opposed to a common T206.

So, assuming I am correct, you have a highly skewed sample
that is not relative to the real world population of these
T206 cards.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Fine Ted ill agree to disagree with you and we can talk about other things now without going back to Mr Kleinow.If you dont agree to disagree ill arm wrestle you at ft washington next saturday or sunday,and the winner will get to claim they were correct in this discussion.

I will say that Drum backs are my dads favorite because he played drums in a band for 18 years.Me personally i like Carolina Brights the best

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Posted By: Anonymous

John/Ted:
My earlier post said: "Agreed that the Kleinow (Boston) is only slightly more difficult than the Kleinow (N.Y. Catching)." I meant to say that N.Y. is only slightly more difficult than Boston. I guess PSA isn't the only one who makes errors. Have a great Thanksgiving.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

John

I am not really a disagreeable guy. I just like to stimu-
late thought-provoking discussions on this vintage stuff.

Great, I will see you at Ft. Washington in 10 days. My
booth is.... #212....just remember the boiling pt. of water.

Meanwhile, John and Scot, I wish you a Happy Thanksgiving.

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Posted By: Mike Brailey

Please add these cards to the population report:

Drum: (2) Barbeau, McQuillen w/Bat
Uzit: (1) McQuillen w/Bat
Broadleaf 460: (3) Joss-Pitching, Seymour-Throwing, Stahl-Hands in Front
Broadleaf 350: (6) Arellanes, Blackburne, Burke, Dubac, Rudolph, Strang
Lenox: (2) Schaefer, White-Piching
Lenox Brown: (1) Schlei
Hindu Red: (2) Konetchy-Fielding, Johnson w/Glove (recent purchase)
Old Mill Brown: (1) Revelle (trimmed)
Carolina Brights: (3) Chance-Portrait, Clymer, Lavender
Piedmont Fact 42: (3) Ames, Merkle, Street, Wagner(Bat R Shoulder)

Mike

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Posted By: Mike Ernst

A very interesting thread! I put together a complete set of 205 and a T206 set missing what was then the big three in 1971. (50-65 cents each back then, and that was tough for me in college).
Looking through the backs (in a hurry) I find a UZIT with Tinker bat off, no red Hindu, one Broadleaf 350, no Lenox or Hindu red.
How many other people are there out there who have an unknown stash of cards like I do?
Also, just an interesting thought--I put three T206 in a picture frame as a gift to my dad, who has since passed away. Those three cards have been exposed to daily natural light now for 34 years, and I see no fading as I compare those with others who have been in an album the same length of time.