Why can't an altered card be graded?

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Posted By: Bryan

Here is a thought. Why doesn't an altered card (trimmed, recolored, ect...) get graded "poor." Afterall the card is still authentic. Technically an altered card is an authentic card in poor condition. Afterall, cards with writing on them get graded. So I thought I would pose the question to the board and get your thoughts.

Keep in mind I believe any altered card should not receive a grade higher than poor. Maybe PSA could grade them a PSA1 ALT.

It would make completing a set in the PSA or SGC registry easier for some lower budget collectors if they could buy an altered high dollar card and have it entombed and counted in their registry. I know PSA and GAI were grading card as "authentic" but I believe (correct me if I am wrong) they are moving away from that. Also, I believe they didn't give the "authetic" grade to an altered card (once again, correct me if I am wrong.)

Your thoughts?

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

I agree, but I still only an unaltered card receives a grade. An authentic (yet trimmed, recolored, etc) should be able to receive a grade of "authentic".

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Posted By: john/z28jd

I brought this up as far back as the old fullcount board and no one back then thought it was a good idea,i didnt understand why.If a card is trimmed then its in poor condition,why not grade it 1(TR) or if its rebacked(RB) etc.

Authentic grade doesnt bother me much except for the fact it doesnt tell you whats wrong with the card

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I like the AUTHENTIC designation. I suppose you could say that any card deemed AUTHENTIC (trimmed, rebacked, color added or whatever) should be marked as such, kind of like the PSA qualifiers.

I have a couple of PSA1 graded cards that I'm pretty certain have been trimmed (N172 and T210). Maybe the graders can't figure this out either.

Maybe the grading services would put the "qualifying" reason for the AUTHENTIC assignment if enough people made the request for them to do so.

I like this topic everytime it comes up because it brings the subject to light and maybe, just maybe one of these times something might come of it.

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Posted By: Daniel Bretta

IMO the grading companies don't like to encapsulate altered cards because they know they will see the cards again and again. Which adds up to a lot more money for them. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

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Posted By: cmoking

I like the Authentic designation also. And it's extra nice to have a reason why ... Trimmed, re-colored, etc. No need for a numerical grade.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I find something a bit odd with cards encapsulated in "Authentic" holders. I have, for example, an N300 Anson that has a little touch-up on the corners so SGC put it in an "AUTH" holder. While I don't dispute the fact they won't grade it because of the touch-up, does anybody really need to have someone else tell them that the card is authentic? I think any novice can look at the card and see it is a real N300 and not a reprint. So does the label offer any information that we couldn't determine on our own? It would be more useful if there was a mention of the color added, which is not there. I think the designation "authentic" could be improved upon and the labels could offer more specific information.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A lot of collectors can't tell if an N300, Goudey or T206 is real.

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

A lot of people collect encapsulated cards. The "qualifying" designation would basically serve the same purpose as PSA qualifiers such as MK, OC, OF, ST or PD. The MK qualifier would indicate a "mark" on the card. The mark should be obvious but PSA puts the qualifier on the label anyway.

The "qualifying" designation for the AUTHENTIC cards would give an indication of what's wrong. To me this is good because I've seen ebay item descriptions indicate that the AUTHENTIC designation was provided because the card wouldn't meet a certain grade and rather than have the card scrutinized because it has an appearance of a "6" but only rated a "4" the seller stated he opted for the AUTHENTIC designation. To me that was absolute BS (not a PSA qualifier) but you really couldn't debate this reason because there was no "qualifying description" provided for the AUTHENTIC designation. This happened on more than one occassion.

I guess there's always going to be someone out there that will take advantage of a situation so the qualifying designation would be for the protection of the buyers of the card. Scans are difficult to judge but a label indicating the defect is something that can't be masked unless the seller covers up the qualifying designation indicator in the scan for the item description.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Barry, you give the average collector too much credit. Most collectors just jump into the hobby and know absolutely nothing about about vintage cards beyond some of the the players and the names of a few sets. I take for granted the knowledge I have about cards, but I am not your normal collector. I made a point of getitng to know everything I could about the cards before I started spending a lot money on them and this was back in 1982 before Is tarted big money on cards. I was at the Willow Grove show in 1982 and didn't buy the complete set of t201s I came home with until I had to prominent dealers I was friends with check out the cards before I bought them.

Jay

Last year there was a fistfight between fans and players at a professional basketball game. Not to be outdone, the National Hockey League has announced that not only will several fans be beaten every period, but one lucky fan each game will be run over by the Zamboni.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

grade these cards a "U" for "unwhole" or "unfit" ???

unwhole :for not all being there
unfit: for unfit for my collection

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay, you are right that I am assuming the average collector knows what we have learned over many years. So why not keep the authentic label but add a line that specifies what is wrong with the card. For example, some collectors might not care if a corner was touched up but would never buy a card that was trimmed, or vice versa. The label doesn't tell you this and that could be a problem.

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Posted By: pete

I have a '67 topps juan marichal with a big spraypaint spot over his face that my brother did back in '68-'69 because juan beat the dodgers in a game he was watching... i called SGC and asked if they would slab it for me since i wanted to give it to him for christmas, the card itself is in pretty good condition except for the 2" grey spot over juan. Sean at customer service told me to include a note and he didnt think it would be a problem since i was not asking for a grade of any sort, not altered, trimmed, mark, poor, authentic or anything, just to slab it. that was thursday and i will be sending it off with a bunch of other cards on monday...sean even said they would return the fee if they didnt slab it for me...maybe this could be a way of getting a couple of cards slabbed every once in awhile...

pete-
edited to try and add photo

my best pitch was the one that made it to the plate!juanmarichal PUT YOUR SHORT DESCRIPTION HERE

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The difference is the difference between "authentic" and "unlatered" and I will give you a concrete example as to why an authentic label for an altered card should either say "altered" or specify the alteration . I saw a dealer selling trimmed but authenticated cards who was telling collectors that he had the cards authenticated rather than graded because of writing on tbe backs that would have brought down the cards to poor. If the cards were labeled altered, that sort of nonsense would not happen. It would also allow a collector who wants a card that isn't altered but is low grade the option of having it slabbed as authentic with no qualifiers so that buyers would know that the card is authentic and unaltered. As it stands now, the "authentic" label is worthless because it means anything goes with the card.

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Posted By: leon

I agree with the sentiment that says a AUT graded card needs to have some qualifier as to why thyr don't have a numeric grade. It would really not be that difficult to put AUT-trm or AUT-rec (recolor) etc.....maybe a grding company will get smart and do it...or maybe someone, from a grading company, that reads this board, could send me an email and tell me why this couldn't be done...

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Posted By: barrysloate

The labels probably could offer more accurate information, but it is more work for the grading service. I think the amount of time they would have to devote to "AUTH" cards would increase, as well as the volume of submissions. Of course, that would mean more business for them too.

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Posted By: cmoking

this is the perfect type of market for a non-industry leader to do something innovative and make up some ground. differentiate themselves in some small way to gain customers and interest in their product/services.

In particular, I think this type of specified Authentication of cards would benefit GAI the most.

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Posted By: DSGreen

I agree with Leon, in that it should include some indicator that would tell the reason it was not graded. It would be a service that would be greatly geared toward collectors, primarily prewar. For example, I would happily purchase an authenticated card that was trimmed if it was from a very rare set, but maybe not one that was colored. It would also provide an opportunity to collectors on a strict budget where as it would be possible to gain an authentic card at a much cheaper price if they were willing to accept it's difficulties.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

GAI is doing it already and I have seen PSA do it as well on some holders. http://cgi.ebay.com/Babe-Ruth-1933-World-Wide-Gum-80-Canadian-Goudey-Card_W0QQitemZ8702737214QQcategoryZ86847QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem. Back of the GAI flip indicates the alteration.

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Posted By: rp60

I pay for the plastic-I want the plastic..If for no reason other than protection and uniformity..So put on the label authentic and altered..

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Posted By: Dave

Good question. I bought a J=K candy (Hartsel). These cards were cut from a box and the person who cut it out got too close to the lines. Because of thar I only got an Aut from SGC. It's depressing because it is a really clean card.

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Posted By: leon

Give them props for that, Greg. I wish SGC would follow suit....One of their fave's could be AUT-siz for "didn't meet size requirements." That way you know they don't think it's trimmed, at least recently?, but it's not large enough to holder....in their opinion....Sounds great but I wonder what, if any, drawbacks there are. Good topic...

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Posted By: Bob S foulpole

Small not trimmed? If it's not trimmed or altered it should be graded. If you collect candy cards you own cards that have small and large borders..I included a scan of each...The Walsh is oversized...What next a BIG
label?

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Posted By: ruthfan

I also agree that if an altered card is graded "Authentic" that it should have a description of its alteration on the holder to differentiate it from an unaltered card.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I asked SGC to grade a couple of 1's for me as authentic instead. Just thought it looked better. Considering the issues that have arisen since then, however, I think I may be forced to crack them out and resubmit for the numbers.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

nothing wrong with those e90-1's, they should be graded. I have seen shorter ones in grade numbers, nice cards.