perhaps a little insight into the T206 Wagner genesis

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Scott

1st.....Let me tell you, as an engineer (at AT&T) I was
in research & development and very closely tied to get-
ting telcom. products out the door and into the market.
I have a lot of experience for what occurs during initial
production. And, this is true in the electronics field or
in the printing field, or any other production line.

Now, in your post...."the discovery of printing flaws on
other cards". I certainly do not know of other card
flaws; but, we do know of at least one flaw....Magee's
miss-spelled name. Why are you dismissing this flaw ?

In addition, during this 1st series press run, Wagner is
allegedly "forcing" the Piedmont Tobacco Co (or any other
brands) to exclude him from any tobacco advertising. So,
I am simply saying that the combination of these factors
caused them to reject the initial printed sheets. Believe
me, in an operation such as this, the employees do not
sit down and start clipping out individual cards. They do
what comes easy and that is dispose and start all over.

This theory tries to account for why the 3 T206 "biggies"
in the 1st Series (150 Subjects) are so rare. Now Plank
(350 Series), as we all know, is somewhat more available.
Again, I cannot try to explain why this is so...not yet.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

I think Joe. P. may have provided the answer.

On the "Series of 150" sheets... they had to REPRINT all of them because of the MAGIE spelling error... so they went ahead and removed Wagner and Plank at the same time.

On the "Series of 350" sheets... they had to REPRINT all of them because of the DOYLE error... so they went ahead and removed Plank at the same time.

Obviously a few Wagners and Planks and Magie error cards and Doyle error cards LEAKED OUT... but that was NOT the intention of the manufacturer.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Based on this... there MUST be a reason for PLANK being removed from BOTH the 150 series AND the 350 series BEFORE the cards were meant to be distributed.

If there was a printing error with the "Series of 150" Planks... they would have just FIXED the error and reprinted... or they would have fixed it when the 350 series came out and there would be a ton of "350 Planks" in the hobby.

Given that Plank was actually printed TWICE and then REMOVED before "final printing" BOTH times... there has to be some reason for this.


Perhaps it is something as simple as the Wagner story, where Plank just did not want to appear on the cards for some reason. Maybe they forgot this when they printed the 350 series... and then someone in "proofreading" saw this and reminded them to REMOVE him again.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hal's theory is credible but Plank and Wagner were very big stars by 1910 so we still need to assume there was a specific reason the printers chose to delete those names. And for the record there were numerous factories printing these cards and to what degree did they all agree in unison to pull cards and reprint sheets?
There is another theory circulating re: Plank and that is a number of prominent Phila Athletics were missing from the set- Mack, Coombs, Adams, among others- and perhaps they formed a group boycott for some reason. Therefore, maybe Plank first agreed to let the cigarette companies use his image, then decided to show solidarity and join his teammates in their boycott. Not saying this is true, but I did hear it through the grapevine.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Let's not link the Wagner myth to Mr Plank. This
Ramly card quickly comes to mind and I think there
are others which dismiss Plank being anti-tobacco.

Sorry, about referring to Wagner's anti-tobacco
story as a myth. But, pictures of an older Wagner
show him using tobacco products Note above post
on the 1956 memorial Yearbook of the Pirates.

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Posted By: barrysloate

He's chewing tobacco on his 49 Leaf card (notice I didn't say his 48 Leaf card).

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Barry

Yeah, the 1949 Leaf Wagner pix I always thought was a
"tongue in cheek" jab at him. Note the "pun"; since it
depicts him in the act of chewing tobacco.

Perhaps, while he was a Coach for Pittsburgh (in his
latter years), the 2nd division status of the Pirates
drove him to using tobacco. Or, maybe all those Cigar-
ette advs. that Bing Crosby (owner of the Pirates) did,
influenced him to become a smoker.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Maybe he got a little daffy in his old age and forgot he was against tobacco.

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Posted By: Bryan

He smoked cigars and chewed tobacco products all his life. That is no secret. He was however against cigarettes. This has been attributed to his manager and long time friend Fred Clarke (he isn't in the set either) being absolutely against cigarettes. He would not allow anyone on his team to smoke them (to his knowledge anyways.) The Pirates actually had first crack at signing Tris Speaker but passed him over due to his cigarette smoking habit.

Two legit reason's have been given for why Wagner turned down the tobacco card offer. He either 1) he did not want his image associated with cigarettes or 2) he was getting promotional offers hand over fist at that time of his career and was turning most of them down. He might not have even thought twice about that offer before turning it down.

This info comes from a Wagner biography. Can't remember the author at this time.

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Posted By: tobacco-r-us

This is what a Vintage Forum is supposed to be mostly about.
Bravo!

Mr Z, I find it interesting that you, and I had the opportunity to play around with the old monster printing press of that time.

Me, one year at my jr high school in 1944, just 35 years from the actual printing of that set.
You, your two years at high school.
I don't know about you, but the thought of that printing monster still scares the hell out of me.

Which leads to my printing question of that set.
Like the King in "The King and I" said, "It's a puzzlement?"

We all know about the the Magie spelling error. ... right?
It was caught, and corrected. ... one, ein, uno error.

Then we have the Doyle wrong League error. ... right?
It was caught faster, and corrected. ... well, sort of.

What they did was to omit the League all together.
Technically speaking, what we have here is a commited error, and an error of omission. ... two, zwie, dos errores.

Ted, from what I recall, it didn't take that long to replace the type in a plate.

Could there be a corrected -- Doyle NY Amer. -- out there?

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

I'm not sure where you came up with the following, but it's unfounded. I never dismissed the Magee flaw. Why do you insist on using this "straw man" type of argument when other board members are not only listening to you, and respecting your opinion, but sometimes even agreeing with you? You've taken my post, picked up on the fact that I mentioned print flaw cards, and then taken my comments to mean something totally unintended. You are the one who said the three sheets might have been destroyed due to "initial printing flaws" - I simply agreed that indeed such flaws might have existed. I AGREED with you. The discussion is interesting, but arguing with someone who has said you "might be right" is ridiculous. Later.

<<Now, in your post...."the discovery of printing flaws on
other cards". I certainly do not know of other card
flaws; but, we do know of at least one flaw....Magee's
miss-spelled name. Why are you dismissing this flaw ?>>

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Hal, I think that linking the Wagner and Plank scarcity makes as much sense as any of the other scenarios. Certainly it makes more sense than any theory that claims the Plank 150 scarcity and Plank 350 scarcity are totally unrelated.

Some of us in the 35-55 age-group actually have brains, whether the young guns and "old school" fellows want to admit it or not.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Plank isn't in the later T sets but he and Wagner are in lots of candy sets, PC sets, etc. He and Wagner are in the T200 team set (where the likely only release obtained was the team's). I really don't think money was the issue with these guys and the T sets; if it was money I would expect not to see any of the myriad candy cards of them, like with Rocky Graziano in boxing, where we know he threatened Leaf with a suit and he isn't in the later Topps sets. I really think it was a product-related objection that was implemented late by the manufacturer in T206 and that they didn't even make the drawing board on the later (T205, T207, T202, etc.) sets because of the experience with T206.

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Barry

I hate to disagree with you, old Buddy. But, my
understanding of all the different Factory #s on
the backs of the various T-type cards identify the
particular tobacco manufacturing plant. Not where
the cards were printed.

Just like the Allen & Ginters and the Goodwin cards
the T-cards were produced in printing firms in NYC.

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Posted By: barrysloate

You are probably right and one question I've always had is did a single printer produce all the cards for all the different brands? That would make sense, since there is a distinct sameness to the print quality on all the issues.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

We've seen scrap cards that had partial incorrect ads on the back.

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Posted By: J Levine

Barry and Ted,

I am fairly certain that all the cards were printed in the same place with the different factory #s and advertising and then sent to said factories where they were placed in the packages. If I recall, the factory codes were used to show were the tobacco was packaged and distributed from. I know someone (wish I could remember who) knows more about the actual printing process including the type of machines used and the company that may have printed them.

It would be completely cost prohibitive to have several large printing presses at different factories just to produce cards. I am fairly certain they were outsourced to a printer.

Joshua

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Posted By: barrysloate

It would make sense that for cost purposes all were printed from one facility; but here's something interesting: every sheet could be printed identically and then have the appropriate tobacco brand added afterwards- except American Beauty, which had to be printed and cut slightly differently and may even have had an extra column on the sheet. Again, we have no surviving evidence to prove this.

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Posted By: robert a

Doug,

I've seen a few with a different name at the top than the player's name that is printed on the bottom, but they're quite uncommon.

What back does that particular card have if you don't mind sharing?

Robert

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Posted By: Doug

Robert,

The Pickering/Snodgrass is a Piedmont 350.

Doug

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Barry, you make a good point. It's genearlly recognized that ad backs for many different brands were printed at each print shop (possibly only one), so if the Plank and Wagner were pulled after production started, why don't we see them represented with a larger variety of 150-series ad backs?

Two scenarios I can think of: 1) they were on scrap sheets (as mentioned previously) that were only printed and/or survived for Sweet Cap and Piedmont or... 2) We know from the surviving ledger ad back examples that different backed cards were released in different regions at different times, even within a series, so possibley Sweet Cap and Piedmont were simply the first ad backs released and production runs of Magie/Wagner/Plank were stopped quickly, before other brands started being produced.

Nothing mind-boggling here, but some readers might not be aware of all this. Plus, if we provide enough of our own ideas, maybe someone who doesn't have tunnel-vision about this stuff will be able to put it all together. Email me for scans of ledger pages with ad backs.

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Posted By: J Levine

I know that different printings at different times occured for the t205 set. Piedmont fact. 25 had at least two different printings, Hassan fact. 649 at least 4 different printings...we know this from the different scarce cards and minor leaugers and trades. It makes sense that t206 may have been the same way...50 sheets were printed with the Magie error and Wagner and then stopped and "fixed"...a few scrap sheets or more likely a few test sheets to show to the company may account for the Plank and Doyle.

I think that the Hoblitzell no stats comes from a sheet like this where just a few sheets were printed and then changes were made...

My opinions are mine!

Joshua

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

JOSHUA L.

You could really enlighten this discussion if you
can recall the person (or article) that may provide
us some insight into the printing processes of the
T206 cards.

You will probably remember the person you eluded to
when least expect it.