Uncatalogued Old Judge Card

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Posted By: David Davis

Hi,
I'm looking for any info on the card below. It is clearly an Old Judge card that has been trimmed and mounted to this Queens Cup All Tobacco mounting. Manufacturer is M.Hirsch. Also, I have seen this card only with his signature in white above where his name has been printed. Does anyone know if this is also unique?

Thanks,
David

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

The main mount for the card is from the N611 actresses series. Does anyone else think that maybe, just maybe someone happened to affix an N172 picture to the N611 mount?

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Fred:

I think you hit the nail on the head and the card was trimmed to fit nicely and neatly into the box where image of the actress is supposed to be.

Kevin

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Posted By: identify7

Whoever put this together sure had an eye for what belongs together. To me, this is better than peanut butter in my chocolate (well maybe not actually better, but nearly so). And he sure had a steady hand with a scissors - you have to look real carefully to imagine that you see the hand cutting.

Also Dave, does "I have seen this card only with his signature in white above where his name has been printed" mean that you have seen another example of this combination?

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

My guess is that he's seen this same Old Judge card with the players name, position and team scripted into the picture above where the block text (player name, position and team) is located. It isn't too uncommon to find the same OJ picture distributed with the player name, position and team both in block and script lettering.

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Posted By: Anonymous

That is correct; the same Herr Old Judge card with the script signature. This is the only example I have with the All Tobacco backing.

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Posted By: identify7

Well, I have a trimmed and skinned OJ which I was wondering what to do with. Now I know. Thank you.

Edited to add: Just kiddin'

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Ed Herr was issued 5 poses in 1888 all with the St. Louis Whites. The first pose was re-issued in 1889, showing him with his new Milwaukee team.

My 1888 example with St. Louis is Cartophilic listing 225-1a.


Your 1889 card is 225-1c (225-1b also an 1889 card with Milwaukee but name represented as "J. Herr")

Regards,
Joe G.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I noticed that behind the base in the card pictured first, there is a white square. In the most recent post, that white scuare is missing or its colored black. Is that a variation or just something on one of the cards?

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Here is the eBay listing:

1887 N172 Old Judge Herr Milwaukees Card unique mount. Card is apparently a skinned OJ that was mounted on the smae back as the N611 Actress series. It's not clear if this was done by someone 120 years ago, or done at the factory, and is just possibly the first example seen. The Herr part itself has a white box in the background that is part of the card; the other variations I have seen do not have this. Whatever the case is, it's still an OJ card.

I feel it is a bit far fetched to suggest the "factory" distributed this card as such with this possibly being the first one to surface. I highly doubt Goodwin & Co. would take one of their Old Judge cards, trim it on all four sides including their advertising on the bottom, skin it, and place on a competing cigarette makers mount.

Lastly, the white box you mention is present on all original St. Louis Whites cards but usually colored in to match the background. My example is colored in although you can still see it if you look carefully.

Regards,
Joe G.

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Posted By: identify7

Is it impossible that M. Hirsch purchased the photo from the photographer? Or was the photographer not independent, or contractually locked into Goodwin?

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Posted By: Joe_G.

It's possible others could have used the photo that Goodwin used but the Name, position, and team banner at bottom of photo are 100% consistent with what Goodwin & Co. added to there photos while producing Old Judge cards.

This Ed Herr creation started life as an 1889 Old Judge.

Regards,
Joe G.

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Posted By: Anonymous

I posted it this way because I don't know, and neither does anyone else what the purpose of the card was, and how it was put together. I am not trying to get over on anyone, and clearly state that it is a skinned OJ.
And by the way, mine has him listed as Milwaukees, not St. Louis. Not sure what that does for the box theory.

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Yes, your example is with Milwaukee, an 1889 card. Just as below, the two Milwaukee examples are 1889 cards. The box is present on all Ed Herr poses (actually all St. Louis White cards originally issued in 1888). Only, during the first year (1888), Goodwin colored it in to match the background. It doesn't appear they felt it necessary to do the same when they re-issued the same poses the second year with Milwaukee. Perhaps the following pics from Dave Levin's site will help demonstrate this.



We now have examples of all three versions of 225-1 in this thread.

I'm not trying to pic the card apart, just stating facts.

Best Regards,
Joe G.

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Posted By: Anonymous

The box maybe, but the cards you show have a signature at the bottom; the one I have does not. Minutiae aside, it's a skinned OJ of unknown origin. The description has been changed and reads as follows

1887 N172 Old Judge Herr Milwaukees Card unique mount. Card is apparently a skinned OJ that was mounted on the same back as the N611 Actress series. It's not clear if this was done by someone 120 years ago, or 50 years ago. The Herr part itself has a white box in the background that is part of the card; and no signature at the bottom. Not sure if this combination has been seen before. Whatever the case is, it's still a skinned OJ card.

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Heres one for you

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Posted By: Joe_G.

Fair enough, sounds good. Although as I stated earlier, your example has been catalogued as 225-1c (it's not an unknown variation). All three variations/version of the pose, a,b,&c can be found in this thread. I didn't mean to come across as so critical of your listing, instead I wanted to help you understand what you have.

Note that some of the 1889 cards can be found with the players name, position, and team written in script only, others are only typed, and some are both. The two side-by-side 1889 poses (different poses, but both 1889 Milwaukee cards) of Herr from Dave Levin's site show two of the three possibilites.

Regards,
Joe G.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

White box on the OTHER side...Milwaukee card, but his uniform says "St. Louis"...

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

David, good luck with the auction. It's nice to see someone research what they sell before throwing it up on ebay. You never know, someone just might find it interesting enough to buy it.


http://cgi.ebay.com/1887-N172-Old-Judge-Herr-Milwaukees-Card-unique-mount_W0QQitemZ5243488513QQcategoryZ86839QQssPageN ameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Now he has seen another version of that card Fred(see my previous post,its the exact same one) so the description is wrong again,tho it was obviously right when he did it.Herr is one of the more common OJ players to find,so the easier to find a certain OJ card,the more likely youll be able to find a small detail thats different.A new pose or team variation would be collectible,but a little difference in the background,that wont do it for anyone unless the player is significant.In this case,its not something new,its just he had not seen another till now

Ed Herr was a light hitting utility player for parts of 3 seasons so combined with being an easy player to find in the set his card in that condition should go for $50 on a real good day.If anything his St Louis version should be worth a little more because they were a first place team and he played around 50 games for them,so people putting together a team set of the 1888 World Series team would obviously need him.

If the card goes for a high price because of the mount i'll start mounting trimmed OJs on anything slightly interesting i cant find and selling them.You might see a rare 1/1 Clark Griffith OJ with a little hustler cigar brand back.

Julie's card btw is a St Louis card with a name change to Pittsburgh,not a Milwaukee card.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...still don't understand the white boxes, but I guess nobody else does either.

I don't think the skinning, trimming and applying to other card frames is going to catch on with the Old Judges..

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Julie, I'm sure there's a neat little theory as to "why" that little "white box" exists (copyright year and company name, etc) and "why" you normally only see it on cards of players that were taken when the player was on St. Louis. This would go great in an article about the different backgrounds/backdrops used in different cities when the photographs were taken (for the N172 series).