This board COULD be so much better!

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Nobody could want it any simpler than this:

Jim Crandell (still obsessed with the overall $$ value of collections, his and others, for reasons that escape me):

"non-graded--forget it."

There you go--

And everywhere else, Jim plays the innocent victim of other people's vicious "attacks" on his chosen method of collecting!

Disclaimer:
I have nothing against Jim personally-- never met or dealt with him. I'm willing to believe he's a great guy in all kinds of ways. I'm just reacting to what I see him post on this board, again and again, ad nauseum.

Tim

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Posted By: steve k

<<< there are gonna be some people that have issues with that because there is more to collecting than just the value of your collection. >>>

Jay - I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. I would have to imagine though that even the hardest-core card dealer, in it for the money, he would even have a few cards in a "collection."

DJ - Sorry if the post came across a little bit blunt - sometimes that's Philly style debating and having lived in Philly for over 40 years I just can't help it

But the point DJ was that value and money and investing are a big part of baseball card collecting and that most certainly includes pre-WW2 cards - we can't stick our heads in the sand and deny that. So in my opinion these things should be of focus at VBC. It of course won't be discussed in every thread and probably not in most threads. I enjoy threads such as Jay starts about the history behind some cards and players - sharing his knowledge about this - and it is appreciated.

Where Jay irks me though is when he makes statements towards Jim such as "I am willing to bet I've forgotten more about collecting baseball cards in the 10 years I was out of the hobby then you currently know." Who cares and it doesn't matter!

Jay - I have probably forgotten more about 50s and 60s baseball cards than you know. Perhaps not. But who cares and it doesn't matter! - especially in a pre-WW2 board But Leon does allow an occasional off topic post-WW2 thread and I contribute when I can. When it comes to pre-WW2 cards I shutup and read and learn...and I enjoy doing so.

But Jim's posts about investing and values are also quite interesting. I see no reason whatsoever why even a so-called "pure" collector such as DJ should mind threads such as these. I don't open every thread here...if a so-called "pure" collector doesn't want to open a particular thread then simply don't open it.

Steve

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Posted By: robert a

THE BEST POSTS HERE DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH VALUE OR WHO HAS THE BETTER COLLECTION.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

You guys don't understand... and it reminds me of a Wes Westrum quote... what a smart man, played under Durocher, who learned from Frisch, who learned from Mr. McGraw. The quote in a moment.

I, for one, and maybe the only one, DO NOT value graded cards more than ungraded. If what you mean is selling price, you may be right. But value, true value... I value being able to actually hold the card, touch it, and think of others who held it before me. My first Cobb card I bought from Lew Lipset, a T206. A bit worn, has a pin hole at the top. Most of you guys would trash talk the card. Some kid had that card on his wall, above his bed, maybe. He might have seen Ty play... My great uncle was a car dealer. He once told me about a trip he took to Detroit, on the train, from south central Kentucky. It was 1922, he was an employee at the automotive place at the time. He, the owner of the place, and another employee went to Detroit to pick up 3 automobiles and drive them back to Kentucky. They stayed overnight. He told me they went to the ball park and saw a ball game. Washington was visiting. My uncle Paul saw Walter Johnson pitch, Ty Cobb get a hit, and Ty then steal a base. Uncle Paul had to be close to 90 when he told me that, his eyes twinkled. I can hold a Ty Cobb card, and that has value to me. More value than physically touching a piece of plastic.

To get value selling a card, I won't argue against plastic generally adding value. As for the value of a card to me that I plan to keep, plastic would decrease the value of the card to me, decrease the pleasure I derive in owning the card.

Wes said, "Baseball is a lot like church, many attend, few understand."

Hell's bells, I wish some of the semi-collector speculator knuckleheads would move on beyond our little cardboard bits; why not get into gasoline futures??

Sometimes I may be wrong, but seldom in doubt.

Frank.

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Posted By: DJ

Steve- I think people hate being classified and I didn't like being judged. I honestly don't care about the value and I'm not a fool for not accessing any sort of value on my collection. Generalizations cause out of control threads...like this one.

I honestly (this is my opinion) think that this Forum isn't for everyone and those people should go to the CU. The ones that harp and harp and harp about dollar signs should be given the torch and asked to leave the Island like our friend from Iowa whose legacy was the longest thread when he told everyone that if you collected PSA1's to PSA3's, that your cards were worthless.

Sure, graded cards is perhaps the future but last I knew, the cardboard itself is what makes the plastic around it valuable and believe it or not, some perfectly good cards do exist without this plastic lucite fitting.

This thread is a room full of screaming people.

Robert, you are correct!

DJ

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Posted By: Brian

Hi Guys, and Gals,
I don't know DJ or Jim, but would advise you to participate in the threads that interest you and ignore the rest. Why increase your stress level over someone's opinion on a chat board anyway? We have enough of that in real life. Collect what you enjoy or invest in and forget about what everyone else thinks.

Cheers Brian

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Posted By: John

Dear Jim;

Let me be the first to say I’m sorry if I am wrong about you. But one more time I have come to this conclusion by what you continue to say in your posts and how you come off while doing so.

Jim I also don’t think everyone or the select few you now have a beef with are plotting or dreaming up ways to bum you out, please don’t flatter yourself. We simply are disagreeing with you and voicing an opinion about you and your beliefs.

The same way you would if I was to post or make a general statement like graded cards are lame or something. If I did that would you not post in disagreement or say I was nuts, of course you would and I would be a big enough person not to cry the blues about it.

I wonder how many of your defenders would rush to the aid of me or others if I was here saying the things you have been saying, without dropping powerful collecting names every second.

And as of late I myself find I’m only replying to you and others continued whining that you are the target of some grand evil plan.

This forum is just fine we share, we argue, we trade and voice opinions about people places and things that’s the whole point of this place.

You think I’m wrong and we’ve gotten off on the wrong foot, email me and let’s talk. If you don’t like me that’s fine, I’m ok with that but please stop burning this torch that you are the unfortunate victim of circumstances and hostility it’s simply not true.

Also Leon if you are reading this? On many occasions you’ve asked unless you have proof of something or someone, don’t bring it up that general accusations should not be allowed. Would it be wrong to think that if Charlie Merkel, Don Louchios and Marshall Fogel or any other names Jim can pull out of his hat, have issues with the board and its select members. That Jim should only post his own issues not the issues of other people. Who seem to have un-proven issues with the board that only Jim seems to know about, these are grown adults who can voice their own opinion are they not?

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Sometimes its not so much the message as it is the delivery. To my way of thinking, it really doesn't matter whatever someone else feels about graded or undgraded, who has the "best" or the "most valuable" collection, blah, blah, blah. That's they're opinion and they're entitled to it whether I agree with it or not. Where the acrimony seems to come in is with the tone of some of the posts, or at least the perception (or, arguably, misperception) of that tone.

This isn't life or death stuff and I quite frankly don't care whether its Marshall Fogel or Larry Frisch who have "the best" or "the most valuable" collection. I'd like to see them both, not so that I can decide that issue, but because they both have some wonderful cards that I'd like to see/drool over. I don't dispute that cards have value. I also confess to trying to keep aware of what my more prized cards are doing price-wise. However, that being said, I generally collect cards because I enjoy doing it, regardless of what they're worth. To my way of thinking, you can't put a dollar value on that. If others are more concerned with collecting for the value of their cards, that's great too. Why should I care as long as I'm happy with what I'm doing? Seems to me that it isn't, or at least shouldn't be, that big a deal.

Kenny Cole

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I strongly disagree with Bruce's suggestion that people who are critical of well-heeled collectors buying PSA 9 slabs are lazy muddlers complaining about people who work hard and have gotten ahead in the world. Let's cut through the self-congratulatory Calvinist rhetoric: the guys who were pioneers and whose collections would be worth fortunes today weren't rich. Timing is everything, my friend. 25 years ago people handed me boxes and bags of old cards for free just to get them out of their attics and garages. If I was 25 years older and was spending the equivalent fraction of my income that I spend now on cards starting in 1980, I'd have an immeasurably more complete, complex and diverse collection than the one I've put together now, and my collection now doesn't suck by any measure (monetary, breadth or otherwise).

No one begrudges anyone their worldly success and no one is trying to take away or disparage anyone's hard-won wealth. But this isn't a Darwinian world, it is a chat board of (mostly) well off white (nearly all) guys who collect expensive toys. I am fed up with the smug natural selection comments that are all the rage among the wealthy in this country. There are so many factors that we have little control of that put us into our present positions: birth, education, US citizenship, etc. We who collect expensive baseball cards for fun, I have a news flash: we have already won the Darwinist race. The difference between the folks who buy PSA 9 cards and brag about how expensive their collections are and the people who spend what they can afford and derive their fun that way isn't a reflection on their relative merits as human beings or their morals. Please don't insult collectors of less impressive means who are passionate collectors simply because they don't measure up to some arbitrary standards of financial success.

Personally, I encourage and welcome all wealthy collectors to buy as many high grade PSA slabs as possible. I WANT you to bid them through the roof becauee it means you will be chasing them and not be collecting what I collect.

And BTW, I have no problem with the Chinese and Indian entrepreneurs who have come up from nothing...as long as they don't collect baseball cards

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Posted By: John J. Grillo

I think someone should be able to pass a little expertise on graded card collections or the challenges of pursuing a graded card collection, and likewise, graded card collectors can learn a lot from the likes of those who mostly pursue raw collections on this board. We should respect the challenges both raw and graded card collectors have to face.

I have no clue whether or not there are raw sets that can compete with some of the best on the PSA or SGC registry, my guess is that there must be. I recently spent the afternoon with a former student of mine who had what looked like at least Near-Mint, Mint sets of a run 1960's football sets. He never heard of PSA or SGC (and believe it or not, he thought Beckett was the only graded company out there).

With that said, it sounds so naive when some claim you can't be a true collector or words to that affect if value is a prime concern. My guess is that most of us here are interested in the value of our collections--even though we do not plan to sell. And because someone is not afraid to admit it and post on this board, we treat him as some sort of Darth Vader.

This board is limited to vintage baseball. I love my vintage boxing but I understand I cannot come on here on rant about boxing cards. I am pursuing a "Boston" T205/6/7 team set so I like to lurk here and learn a little. If graded card collections are discussed, it should be kept within the subject limits of this forum in my opinion.

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Posted By: Bob

Amen, Adam. Very well said.

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Posted By: bruce dorskind

The point, Boxing Man, is that people should have the freedom to collect
what they wish, and say what they wish...much as you did.

No one is bragging about the value of their cards.

The Four Base Hit and The Just So I own were among the first 15 type
cards that I ever purchased. I recognized early on, much like collecting
art, you rarely go wrong when you aquire the very best in top conditon/

I also disagree with your view of the rich in this country. For the most
part, they are wealthy because they worked harder, risked more and
never gave up...just like the guys who made it to the major leagues.

It is not a question of a PSA 2 collection being better or worse than
the highest rated collection in a registry.

But don't deny for a moment, that this hobby, much like collecting coins,
art or Rare furniture is competitive and collectors are in competition,
albeit, usually not life or death for the very best items.

That is why Mastro and Lifson realize astronomical prices for items
the first time they are offered and said items often fall in subsequent
auctions.

I am hardly Calvinist in my views. I do believe that the differences betwen
rich and poor have more to with effort and determination than anything
else. And that most of the succesful people I have ever met built
their businesses and built their collections whether it was based on luck
or visioion or pure blood sweat and tears

I was 24 when I realized the rarity of Four Base Hits, Just So's and Boston
Garters...everybody else was chasing after Hank Aaron cards...does that
make me lucky? I hardly think so.

This hobby is about the History of America's sport...and America has and
always will be a country based on individual achievement and visionary
competitiveness. We all compete with each other evey day. Don't overlook
that point.

I appreciate your consideration

Bruce

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

Say Bruce,

Speaking of this board being better...

This is a great group of people that contribute here. How do you feel about contributors that make statments on the board and then say they will follow through by mailing information to another board member and not following through?

By the way, I appreciate your offer to me to mail me a 1923 article you found about OJ cards but never following through on it. I provided my mailing infomation as you requested, waited and nothing. I emailed you a few more times and then figured you just didn't care to send it. If you are going to say you mailed it then that's great, it never made it to me and you stopped responding to my emails.

Thanks,

Fred

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Posted By: Judge Dred (Fred)

I meant a "copy" of the article.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Thanks to all but its obvious the only way Jay and now Tim(who is he)will stop attacking me is if they wear themselves out. They are so crazed with jealousy and hatred that they are getting delusional.
The world is changing guys--you can either get on or be left behind.
If you want to keep up the attacks fine if thats what you are about. I've been told I can fight back.
Is it wrong to say that people don't want to post here because of the arrogant attitude of Jay and others?
Is it wrong to say that graded cards are the future of the hobby?
Is it wrong to say that graded card collectors now have the most valuable collections in the hobby?
All these are indisputable in my mind.
Sorry to shake up your world but a little truth is good now and then.

Jim

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Posted By: zach

No offense to anyone but isn't this board about vintage baseball cards? How many threads are we gonna have about money and how the board could be better before we get some card talk ?

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Jim:
"Thanks to all but its obvious the only way Jay and now Tim(who is he)will stop attacking me is if they wear themselves out. They are so crazed with jealousy and hatred that they are getting delusional."

Jim, mentioning "jealousy and hatred" really ups the stakes a bit too much, don't you think? It's just a hobby, after all.

I have no interest in attacking you personally. ALL I WANT is for you to think twice before making comments ridiculing and belittling anyone who doesn't have a bunch of overpriced plastic slabs for his collection.



Tim

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Posted By: Steve

Jim, I consider you a friend and as such i should advise you to preface what you write here with IMO.



JMHO


Steve





edited to add: Chris (original poster) I agree with you.

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Posted By: Rob

Edit: Oops. Sorry. I thought I was on the Beckett board.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tim,

I am not ridiculing anyone. I am simply defending myself--mostly from Jay's and now your attacks.

Your view is obvious--"overpriced plastic slabs"

The truth is that grading has been the savior of the hobby. I can't tell you how many people I have spoken to that gave up on the hobby because of card trimming, bleaching etc. With card grading these people have come back and are once again enthusiastic.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

I would also urge everyone to read Chris's original post--Jay and others are trying to change the subject from the way they attacked me in prior posts for publishing estimates on Merkel's collection.

There should be no place for this kind of thing on this message board. Its about cards. Jay if you get the urge to attack me just stop---you can do it--simply don't respond to my posts if all you can do is make it a personal attack.

Jim

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Hi Jim,

Let's try to keep it civil-- we can disagree about the importance of grading without personalizing-- that's certainly what I would prefer. If I broke that rule, I apologize.

I really don't have a problem with card grading. I certainly don't see it as the hobby's savior, but it's probably an inevitable phase in a maturing hobby. I take advantage of it when it seems useful to me.

As I've said repeatedly, I just don't like the implication that anyone not on the grading bandwagon can't have a superb collection, or be as knowledgeable about the hobby as one who has lots of 8s and 9s.

Anyway, I'm going to swear off any more "attacks", because as I've said, I have nothing whatsoever against you personally, and arguing with people is not why I'm in this hobby.

I would just earnestly ask that before you post in the future, you pause to consider that others have very different approaches to the hobby from yours-- and that theirs may be equally valid. None of us has a corner on "the truth" about this hobby.

Regards,
Tim

Edited for style

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Posted By: Josh K.

This is funny to me. I like graded cards. Nearly all my cards are graded. I love the cards, but am certainly aware of the value in the cards.

Nevertheless, Ive never been attacked by Jay, Tim, Wonka, T206 or any of the numerous other people who have trouble with the tone/content of Jim's posts. Ive also noticed that these same people have no problem with Hal or his very high dollar (and mostly graded) collection. The main difference (and this has been mentioned above) is that Hal contributes to this board in more ways than I can count. For that matter, so do Jay, Tim, Wonka and T206. I hope that others view my posts as adding something to the board even though I am a relative newcomer to the prewar sector (less than 2 yrs).

Jim, people seem to be begging you to just offer something that is useful and helpful - why not just take the opportunity to contribute your knowledge rather than continuing to make statements that come across basically as "F off, I'll post whatever the hell I want."

Meanwhile, I guess its better being one of the peons without an "advanced" collection. At least I can donate a card or two to raise money for those less fortunate without sacrificing my rank in the psa set registry.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

In his excellent post, Josh said:
"Jim, people seem to be begging you to just offer something that is useful and helpful - why not just take the opportunity to contribute your knowledge"

I suspect (Jim can correct me if I'm wrong) that Jim was trying to do exactly this when he posted about the monetary value of those high-grade collections. I was interested in his estimates for these sets, and he is no doubt quite knowledgeable about these matters.

So I believe that was meant as a constructive post. But then things turned a bit sour, and both "sides" let slip some comments that probably shouldn't have been said, and we were all off to the races............

But I've had enough, and maybe others have too, so let's try to get back to why we enjoy collecting (in our different ways)

Regards to all,

Tim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tim,

Fair enough.

Two points.

1)I agree there are those not on the grading bandwagon who have superb collections--just not in the top three in dollar value.

2)Of course people with ungraded cards can know as much as those with lots of 8s and 9s. Its just rare this happens(kidding). I like this board because I can learn. While I have seen cards from most pre-war sets(collect about 10) and think I know a lot about baseball in that era I do not know intracacies about the sets.

Jim

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Posted By: John

“Is it wrong to say that people don't want to post here because of the arrogant attitude of Jay and others?”

Yes, only speak for yourself Jim try letting us know how you feel without dropping a dozen names. Let those people come forward and speak for themselves.

“Is it wrong to say that graded cards are the future of the hobby?”

No not at all, but don’t hold your breath and pout like a little baby when others disagree with your view.

“Is it wrong to say that graded card collectors now have the most valuable collections in the hobby?”

IMO, yes how the hell do you know what all of the collecting world has? Who are you the amazing card Kreskin?

“All these are indisputable in my mind.”

Good for you, I’m happy you have an opinion and I respect your opinion, now here’s a twist try respecting other peoples opinions too!

“Sorry to shake up your world but a little truth is good now and then.”

Truth is fine I guess but just because you threw up an opinion about these things Jim doesn’t make it gospel, get over yourself already.

And one more thing let Charlie Merkel, Don Louchios and Marshall Fogel or anyone else you can think of, come in here and discuss the values of there collections since they are the ones who own them.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Josh,

What do you think I am doing. Tell me how many collectors actually know the estimated worth of Merkel's collection or that because of the rapid escalation of graded card values that the most valuable sets are now held by graded card owners--not many.
I can contribute to the board mostly through my knowledge of the graded card market and the people in the hobby.I know virtually all of the major graded card dealers and am close friend with Baker and Rocchi of GAI and with Dave Forman--president of SGC.
I would suggest if people don't like this stuff don't post.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Sorry John--going to say what I want to say--I encourage you to as well as long as you don't attack me.

Just don't pout like a baby if I do not respond.

Jim

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Posted By: zach

many other people have great collections. One who I am pretty good friends with whose collection not many at all know about. Another is the owner of the Just So Young whose collection is suppose to be top notch.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Zach,

Absolutely true. Lots of graet collections out there. I may try to expand my top three list and make it a top 10 or a top 20.

Jim

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Posted By: John

I wont Jim don’t worry, I encourage you to say whatever you want, think you can do that without dropping any more names?

You know just the other day I was talking with my good friends Morgan Freeman and Tom Cruise and they were like “Wonka, we would love to come post on the network 54 board, but Jim scares us”. Sean Connery was like “yes its people like Crandall who keep guys like me from contributing to the board” I tried to explain too them with my good buddy Tom Hanks it was ok but even Tom was a bit leery he said “I’m just afraid there going to bring up Bosom Buddies, I don’t know if I can handle that!”




“Absolutely true. Lots of graet collections out there. I may try to expand my top three list and make it a top 10 or a top 20.”

Ohhh that would be super Jim, let us know who makes the list.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

see ,I agree with Dennis , but it is an opinion.

yOu state that "THIS FORUM" trashes you about this Jim Thorpe card everytime ,well...Iam a part of this forum and would not trash you over the card .

Matter of fact, I could care less about the card cause I dont even collect B & W's
and dont like 19th century cards either. I would like to have a couple back of the 75 or so that I once had ,but that is about it.

Chris- I believe that is quite daring to tell a whole board that it could be better when there is no cussing and harmless back and forth issues. It is almost like saying that no one can disagree w/ anyone. There will never be a perfect chatboard unless you can program the way that you want everyone to act ,it aint gonna happen.

Relationships in general fail due to ones thinking that they can change an individual. We are who we are , and zatz it. You will find an array of different people on this board from rich to poor - skinny to fat and some in between like me.

You'll find some that think you are referring to another race in a bad way (which I found rediculous).Others obviously did too as they came to my aid and stated their opinion about it. My opinion was that I ruined their afternoon game of "butt darts"....but...I didnt go and say that. The word "misconstrued" was use more times then Ive ever heard in my life.

WHat I liked about some of the responses were that I never seen the other side of that person ,it wasnt that I didnt enjoy the support,but I really like to read in to the different sides of people ,THIS IS WHAT MAKES US INTERESTING !!!!!

JohnnyWonka....you are a funny mother hubbard ,most of your prior posts I thought you were always real serious and Wesley with his 3 liner, I appreciate the humor....it was worth it. There were others.

You can be a cross-dresser here and I aint mad at ya ,I might ask what color pannies you wearing?...As long as you state who you are , Leon will let men be men and if you do not own upto that, you get warnings or ejections. How fair is that???

There are people waiting to enter this forum because it is the only place to come and talk about out hobby "PRE WAR". I reall dont like it when people talk about their 50's crap ,but I wont go out of my way to trash you. It doesnt matter to me and doesnt change the way that I think , so Iam like ,so !

Many will not like this post reply, but ,"so what"! I have been told here that is this the Dan show and Iam not funny ,well...I have been making people laugh for 42 yrs since I was 2 and I beg to differ , that is your opinion. This is my charachter
and who Iam ,but Iam also the person that hugged and kissed his parents before bedtime and can guarantee that i have more sentimental values in a day then most will have in a lifetime....did you know that ?


I never have took aim at anyone here and there is none of you I come home to (other then chatting),so if you dont like something that someone says, dont respond . I didnt have to say any of this and could have easily refrained ,are you the one that holds me at night ?....nope , so it doesnt change how you or I sleep.


Many different charachters here ,Barry Sloate (always on the level), Barry Arnold writes like I would expect Mr.Rogers to write, Scott Brockelman never writes unless he wants a card(just kiddin Scott).Hal just wants something expensive HOF
wise period.

Leon is a great moderator and pal ,even he may not like some of this, but will let me be me if I hold responsibility w/o attack.

Let's hear it !


Good evening
Dan

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Posted By: JimCrandell

John,

I will send you a special press release first so you know it before anyone....you are trying to be funny--the comments made to me sadly are true--I don't think that is appropriate to say them here however so I won't.

Jim

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Posted By: BlackSoxFan

Blah...blah blah...blah blah blah blah!

Yao Ming go BLING BLING!

Regards,
Black Sox Fan

- - - - - - - - -

I'm Smart Enough To Know, There Are A Lot Of People Who Know More Than I Know

BlackSoxFan.com
email me

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Posted By: Josh K.

Jim,

The point that we are trying to make is essentially this: your knowledge cannot be limited solely to your opinion as to who has the most valuable set. You obviously have a great collection - why not share some of the knowledge you have learned about the cards themselves. And when people ask for you to share that info - so they can learn - dont respond by giving them the virtual middle finger.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

my point exactly BSF !

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Josh,

I have initiated 1 thread --give me a chance--trying to think up something equally controvertial.

Jim

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Posted By: WP

Exactly, Jim why don't you enlighten us on the WIWAG scandal? I am sure you have a lot of knowledge on that topic and it might be helpful to board members.

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Posted By: Josh K.

come on Jim - there you go again. Im happy to give you a chance - just leave off the condescending comments.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Condescending comment? What I am saying is Ihave been posting regularly for 2 weeks--I will have more to say--just give me time--I can't use up all my good posting ideas immediately. I'll give people a chance to calm down first.
See my recent post combimned with a hurricane donation.

Jim

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Posted By: leon

I hate to break the little party up but I think everyone has had time to speak their minds. Let's go ahead and put a halt to it....as much as some of it is kind of funny it's just like anything else, too much and it can be bad. Bottom line is that this board will never be Utopia. We are passionate about our collecting and it shows. If you collect graded or ungraded, expensive or not, new or old, it really is about baseball and the way it used to be...and the little masterpieces that help us remember it. No ones really right or wrong here...Ya'll get some sleep..regards....moderator dude