great card found in Japan

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Posted By: Ty Hope

I am an American currently living in Japan, and recently found a store that sells imported cards from the US. I decided to try my luck and bought a pack of 2005 Timeless Treasures. I was shocked when I pulled a HOF prime jersey, bat, auto, 1/1 Roerto Clemente. You never know where great cards will turn up!

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Posted By: Adam J. Moraine

W.T.F. is this crap doing on a vintage forum? "2005 Timeless Treasures" ? What was a timeless treasure were the game used bat/game used jersey of Clemente's that were shredded to ity bitty pieces to make such rubbish. Sorry for my rudeness folks, but I am TOTALLy against game used memorabilia cards. Such pieces(The game used items) are in fact, timeless treasures. They should be preserved at the H.O.F. in Cooperstown, N.Y. not destroyed and maimed to end up on a card. The autograph portion of the card is beautiful. The rest is pure crap. IF you want to impress me, let me know when you find a 1933 Goudey Ruth or a T-206 Wagner in Japan.

Best Regards,

Adam J. Moraine

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Posted By: pete ullman

yea...take this sh#t elsewhere. Where's Leon when you need him!

Pete in mn

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Posted By: leon

right here. I do have to sleep every now and then although I have been told that I really shouldn't as moderator of the 7x24 Vintage Card Forum. I am going to leave this for a while, but not let anymore new threads like it be started, so anyone can express their feelings, as Adam did, about this kind of situation. I am totally against cutting up antiquities to put on a new shiny piece of crap card. This disgusts me too....I will reserve the right to delete this whole thread at anytime if, by continually looking at it, it makes me, or any valued board member, puke. Is this what they have to do to sell cards now?...regards all

edited for spelling but I am sure my grammar still sucks...let's don't go there please

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Posted By: Brian

I just returned to collecting after a 10 year absense. I could not believe the lenghth card companies have gone to sell cards, most alarming is the destruction of almost priceless uniforms to place on cards. The shinny stuff just turns me off, the "special" 1/1 cards not only turn me off, but actually get my blood pressure up.

Brian

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Posted By: dennis

think of how many 1/1 cards they can produce with the tiny piece of material and wood displayed on the card. by the time that jersey and bat are cut down to nothing,by my guess there will be about 200,000 rare modern clemente cards available for sale.upon waking up, i saw this thread about a "great" card found in japan my thoughts were of a goudey ruth/gehrig/manush or early japanese cards(such as the ones julie posts here).then i saw the "great" card and thought i was on the CU board.

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Posted By: steve k

Couldn't agree more about destroying a piece of memorabilia like this. An autograph card is fine of course - nothing destroyed there.

My sincere belief though is that this complete garbage mostly ain't even real anyway. Who is to say if it's a piece of anyone's real shirt or bat? There are problems involved with authenticating a whole shirt or bat, let alone a piece. This could have been anyone's shirt or bat, or anyone's fabric or wood. This is all so rediculous and pathetic, but yet people are falling for this crap which in my opinion should be worthless.

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Posted By: Anonymous

My appologies. To be honest, I just got back into collecting and was looking for a web site to discuss baseball cards. I typed in "baseball card message board" in my yahoo search, and this is the first site that popped up.
I didn't realize that this was a vintage only site.
If I knew how to delete my post I would.
Again, sorry to everyone for my mistake.

Sincerely,
T. Hope

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Posted By: pete ullman

it's ok ty...you have good intentions. you should sell that piece of crap now while it's hot(to some people) and pick up a nice vintage card...perhaps a ty cobb!!!

pete in mn

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Posted By: Brian

I disagree with the Ty Cobb suggestion, the less people who buy them, the better. Less people buy, the lower the price, the more I can buy
Brian

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Posted By: Robert

My vote is snag a Cobb 206 green port and while your at it, snag a big train port and a Mathewson port as well
Welcome to the board Ty.

basicgreatguy@hotmail.com

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

This board is for Vintage cards...re: Pre-WW2 (and really pre-WW1 cards). You'll find a fine group of collectors here, with shiploads of knowledge about what they collect.

If you want to talk about Post-WW2 cards, you'll get better results by going to www.psacard.com and clicking on their message boards. I also post there and they are also a fine group of people.


Steve

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Posted By: Anonymous

I don't own many old cards, but would love to get a hold of some. Right now my oldest card worth anything is a George Brett RC.
Any advice as to how about getting into collecting vintage cards?
T. Hope

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Posted By: leon

Tyler seems like a nice young man. He (hi Tyler) also sent me a personal email apology. This too is why I don't immediately delete these threads. Some good can come from them. Hopefully we can convert Tyler to the real cards like we collect What you are collecting Tyler, is what we all think is the proverbial "house of cards" that could fall at anytime. You could go to ebay and type in T206 in a search and get to the types of cards that we collect. This is a great group on this board and we are mostly very nice folks.....I hope you keep looking at our board and come over to collecting the cards you will see on this board..In the long run you will be better off and can relish the history of the game...before million dollar bonuses, steroids, and cry babies.....best regards

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Posted By: dennis

the best advice for getting into vintage is to vow to never spend any $ (or time) on collecting modern cards. i would say that every one here has spent more $ than they care to admit on new stuff.(i quit in 1993? after spending tons on ud and leaf bb and watching it plummit in value) but somewhere on the choice was made to never buy modern again.as mentioned in previous posts list the clemente card on ebay,then take that money and buy vintage! you will never look back.

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Posted By: Rob

Instead of bashing the guy and scaring him away, why not educate him on the finer points of true vintage? Would it not be preferrable to convert a modern collector into a vintage collector? The way he was attacked was pretty much uncalled for. Please get a hold of yourselves. Are we simple life forms that just eat and sleep and perceive anything new to be a threat to our own existence? Or did you forget that YOU are the gods of obtaining true and rare antiquities? Why would you let a mere mortal get to you?

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Posted By: Rob

I was just like you - I, too, am a convert.

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Posted By: leon

Some of us never did buy the shiny crap. I started back collecting about 8 years ago when I was 35. I started as having a focus on Rookie HOF's so my newest card I bought was an '84 McGwire Fleer Update. After that it went back dramatically in age. I thought he might be a HOF'er eventually so that's why I bought it....and not too long ago sold it...and all of the rest of my Post WWII stuff....I could get it all again today if I wanted too so who cares?.....Just saying there might be some on the board that never bought the new crap....regards

edited because I can't spell well.....thanks John....

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Posted By: leon

I agree and I EVEN came off as getting onto him a little bit. It's never too old or young to learn (my prophecy for the day). regards

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Posted By: jay behrens

Make use of the lattry ticket while it's still a winner. By next month, no will care and it won't be worth 10% of what the book value claims. I have no idea what it would sell for but you are a Clemente fan, use the money to buy a decent 55 Topps Clemente, or as was suggested, spend it on a vintage HOFer. These cards will hold their value far better than that abonination.

The quote I ever heard as to why things should not be cut up so everyone can own a piece of it, "a half inch square of the Mona Lisa just isn't the same as owning the whole thing. The beauty and context of the item is lost when it is cut up"

I'm still waiting for one of the companies to buy a t206 Wagner and cut it up.

Jay

I like to sit outside drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: dennis

i bought vintage too,but far too much was spent on cards when i returned to the hobby in 1983. from 83 on (1993?)i tried to buy complete sets and new stuff i liked(not to mention football,hockey basketball old and new)but decided to sell all but baseball and concentrate on 1969 and older. too bad i sold all the other stuff to dealers pre ebay! ouch!

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Posted By: john/z28jd

Hey Leon got a scan of that rare McGuire(sic) 84 fleer updated? Must be pretty rare since he was playing in the Olympics that year

I still buy some newer cards here and there,mostly Pirates or random packs of cards that look nice/interesting like the topps t206s or fleer cards that used Goudey design.I dont agree with telling people not to buy anything new,i would say dont spend alot for anything new but if you have a favorite team or player its always cool to pick up a team set a year.Telling people new stuff wont be worth anything so dont collect it is basically saying youre just be an investor and dont buy what you like.

PS Being a huge Pirates fan id love the Clemente card that started this thread

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Posted By: DJ

Upon seeing that Clemente, I too threw something across the room, cursed a bit and took a long walk. Simply put, it's 'Sports Memorabilia homicide'.

It's not you we dislike Ty or the fact you purchased this item but the item itself is that unwanted member of the family that you bring with you to each of the Holiday gatherings and just causes discomfort. I am highly offended that something like this exists.

Leon has you on the right track. I think T206's are a fantastic way to begin a collection and before you run, you must crawl. No need jumping into the 'Hall Of Famers' just yet and the rule of thumb is that 'if it's too good to be true, it most definately is'. Graded cards are a great way to insure you are buying the real thing and avoid that 'ungraded' T206 Honus Wagner from a 'found cigar box' with the image taken from a shaky Sesna four thousand feet above that's at $700 with three minutes left. Fraud exists in a major way.

DJ

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Posted By: leon

In the Sportscards Plus Sotheby's auction, that is going on right now, there are lot's of these types of cards.....ouch.....and after what John said I would tend to agree. If you like the shiny new stuff, fine...just don't spend a whole lot of money on it.....could be the best advice...regards

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Posted By: barry arnold

Yes, we are a vintage board and proud of it.
Yes, we'd also like very much to have you join our ranks as you realize
the art and substance available in the true vintage material, without
the destroyed bats,jerseys,etc.
These wonderful pieces of history don't need such blatant marketing
tactics to sell themselves!
So do consider 'converting' and joining us,Ty.
You'll notice that we may get carried away with our love for the
cards and the injustices out there surrounding this whole modern
shiny commodities thing. Perhaps we jumped on you too quickly and
even 'belligerently'---but you can tell now that it is simply out
of our passion to make sure truth and goodness stay primary, and not
the 'almighty' buck. You'll also note that this board quickly corrects
itself, bringing a self-correcting equanimity to the fore, with the best
of intentions offered to those, such as yourself, who have good intentions.
'nuff said. A great place to be, Ty.

all the best

Barry Arnold

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

I would guess many people here started out collecting cards that were being currently issued and then eventually migrated back in time as their sophistication and financial wherewithal increased. As silly as the Clemente card is, it at least has the potential to interest today's young collectors buying Ichiro and Jeter cards in players of a bygone era, and who knows where that might lead in turn. Leon I think you did the right thing in not having a knee jerk reaction. As I posted in another thread, the one turn off I have in card collecting is people who think they are superior.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

First of all, the guy comes into the forum happy and some folks pee on his parade. Not nice. It never hurts to be polite, even when rebuking someone. You want to create more vintage enthusiasts, educate. You want to drive away people, scold.

Second, while I loathe the destruction of memorabilia, I do have an appreciation for certain modern cards, the certified autograph cards. With all the bogus garbage floating around out there, the card companies that either obtain HOF and popular signatures on nice looking cards and vouch for their authenticity or who put together a nice presentation for cut signatures and vouch for their authenticity are doing a good service to collectors. I have many such autographed cards. The best part is that they sell for a fraction of what it costs to get an item signed at a show and enable people who cannot get to shows to participate. I've been very happy with some of the modern products that enable me to collect autographs of my boyhood favorites (the late 70's Bronx Bombers) that I know I'd not otherwise get. So don't slam all modern stuff in one breath.

Third, in that vein, I am willing to bet that this particular card holds quite a bit more of its value than some have suggested because it contains a cut signature of a very popular HOFer who died during his career and is in demand and often forged. The cut signature cards of deceased greats have held up quite nicely since issuance because people like the presentation and the certainty of what they are buying. I would LOVE to pull a 1/1 cut of Ruth or Gehrig or Clemente and I would undoubtedly keep it despite the fact that I could sell or trade it for a vintage card.

Fourth, modern cards have a very important role to play, creating future vintage collectors. My nephew is almost 6 and a baseball fanatic. I'm not gonna give him a T206 to toss around but I buy him boxes of modern cards all the time. If he stays on track like he is, he will be going to shows with me in a few years.

Finally, I confess to occasionally buying a box of cards (always a year or two after issue and at blow-out prices) because opening packs is part of the fun. I give the cards to my nephew.

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Posted By: Myron

I kind of agree about the game used jersey/bat thing, but I don't see what's so wrong with modern cards. At least I can get a cool looking card of my favorite player without breaking my bank account. It seems you almost have to be doctor or lawyer to afford most vintage HOF's. Most people just don't have that kind of money. I can afford some vintage commons, but I really have no interest in them. I'd rather spend $30 on an autographed card of my favorite player than on some vintage common player I've never heard of.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

It's 1948, and the necessities of life were still hard to come by in Japan. This is the great Russian pitcher Starffin, on some sort of a tribute day , holding two geese on a leash, in addition to other household goods surrounding him. Looks a bit sheepish.


...

Yes, it is a card, not a photo. His name has been written into the negative, which makes it a "bromide," a common Japanese photographic card of the '40s.

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Posted By: DJ

I simply LOATHE modern cards to be honest with you. I miss the good old days (even as far back as the late eighties) when Ken Griffey Jr. had three rookie cards and then he was added in Traded sets (that's okay), but today, a player like Albert Pujols will have 60-70 different cards for the current year alone counting all the variations.

His normal rookie card will be the least expensive because of all the 'Inserts' and nothing today holds it's value it seems. I have a subscription to 'Beckett' and I'm astounded at the down arrows of 'anything new' next week and I like the fact that two pages represent 1909-1970 and the other 40 are from 1990-2004.

It used to be fun. Go into a store, purchase a box and pay $18 and have fun with it. I enjoy the fact that there are certain levels of box pricing depending on who is issuing the cards. It also started in 1989 when Upper Deck came out and then Topps had to one up them with Stadium Club and then Fleer had the 'Flair' and then 'Zenith' and then Pinnacle and then Bowman's Best and so on.

Basically today the person purchasing the box doesn't care about the regular cards but looks for the gimmicks, the high dollar cards...the Game-Used-Piece-Of-Clothing with a Signature that is Limited To One and where the book says it's worth $2000 (only to be worth $1000 next week). While there are collectors out there who still fancy the products, the truth of the matter is that there are those who simply gamble for those big dollar cards amd they have a better chance at a casino.

DJ

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

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Posted By: Wesley

What are the odds of pulling a card like that? In a sense you have won a mini-lottery. Roberto Clemente has a huge following and a 1 of 1 autograph card like yours must be one of the top cards from that set. I do not collect modern cards so I would probably trade the card, but nonetheless still think that you pulled one heck of a card.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Some of the recent living Hall of Famer certified autographed insert cards are nice ... The ones where they were paid to sign directly on the card, not the ones with cuts. It's a nice way for a collector to purchase a genuine autograph of a Nolan Ryan or Al Kaline or Willie Stargell.

There's nothing wrong with purchasing today's shiney insert cards (and I think it's condisending to chastise someone for collecting modern stuff), so long as the collectors realize that nearly all of the current stuff will fall in price as time goes by (usually excluding a suprise hot rookie). With modern inserts, it is always this years' cards that are in great demand. And it doesn't take long for this years' cards to become last years' cards.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I was filling in HOFer autograph holes in my collection for $10 and under on very nicely designed cards. I picked up Gibson, Doerr and a couple of others. I also picked up some popular players (Dawson, Franco (John), Vidro) and some Jewish players (Kapler, Lieberthal, Ausmus) for about $3 each. They were cheap as heck, they're real and they're spectacular

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I don't collect the new stuff, but I do buy a topps set every year. I have been doing so since my son was born in 2001 and I plan on giving him the sets when he turns 18. The only other Topps sets that I have are the 1972 and 1974 sets, but I would like to put together a set from my birth year (1967).

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Posted By: John Barnes

60-70 different issues per year for each player?

There are almost that many in a couple donruss products.
Try a few hundred.

John

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Posted By: T206Collector

I had to quit cold turkey -- the impulse packs at the checkout counter of the local bodega were the hardest to avoid. But I did it and I have never looked back. The money I was blowing on modern crap was, well, scary. Never again. No never again.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Its interesting that it seems like quite a number of us who got back into the hobby after long breaks started out collecting modern cards. I got back in the hobby about two years ago buying, you guessed it, the shiney stuff. However, I was mostly buying certified autos of HOFers (on retro cards designed to look like the old cards, but with new pics) and the first box of modern product I bought was a box of Topps T206 and Heritage (which had a design like the 54 topps cards). So, it was probably only a matter of time before I truly went vintage. Like T206collector, I spent way too much money of the new stuff (though I did buy several Pujols auto cards for under a $100 that are now routinely selling for close to $400 - so not everything is going down).

Im happy to say, Ive been shiney free for over a year.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

very nice responses and thanks for being nice and acknowledging his find. Iam so glad that we didn't hear of a guy jumping off the Tokyo Bridge for finding a baseball card. There surely is a nice way to direct and redirect one in this situation.

I too could care less for newer cards ,cause for most of us, we wouldn't know how to look at them right as we glaze in our own treasures.The modern stuff that I have are hoards of 3-d's that were around in my early collecting days and would only get discussed in an appropriate post of how we got started.

At times ,I glance at some of todays prices and I believe that I seen 1/1's fetching over 5k.

If his find is a 5k'er or better, then it is quite a prize. That find doesnt belong here on this board, but did many others that I have seen belong ???

Just simply redirect.

Ty if you ever need a person to get you on your way ,I have alot of info for you and do make time for others. We all want to be heard from someone. I hope you do venture into pre war , you will find alot of excitement. Good luck !

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Posted By: Jeff

Edited to remove everything I said.

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Posted By: Tyler

I had known of the Beckett site from Beckett magazaine, so went there first. After that, I wanted to learn more about cards and meet more people, so I put a search in Yahoo. That's how I got here.

Thanks to everyone for all of the great info about vintage cards. To be honest, I am interested in all cards (new and old), and am planning on buying some vintage cards soon. (Especially a Ty Cobb)

Again, sorry to anyone I offended by posting my card.

T. Hope

PS : If possible, could someone delete my post? I'm glad I was able to receive so many responces (positive and negative), but to be honest, I realize I f***ed up and would like start over and post a more appropriate card on this site.(once I get one)

Thanks again.

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Posted By: leon

Hey Tyler,
I, and my other helpers, can delete posts and threads. I would prefer to let this one stay as there is good info in it. You didn't really do anything wrong you just got a vintage board that is very opinionated. If you insist on me deleting the thread I will do so.....best regards

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Posted By: Rob

Just leave it as is. It's a lesson ALL of us could learn from, not just about cards, but human interaction.

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Posted By: Jeff

"I realize I f***ed up"

Ty,

You didn't F' up. In todays modern cards you have what is considered a really good card pulled from a pack. I just wish that these card companies would put a redemption for the actual items instead of cutting up and destroying historical items. They cut up everything and anything these days and it is in my opinion not one bit of a thrill to own a small piece of a jersey or bat.

The argument for them is that since not everybody can afford the actual item this way they can have the chance of pulling part of something from a pack that doesn't cost thousands of dollars to obtain. Well I am no where near to being able to buy any real game used bat, jersey or signature of the greatest players that ever played the game and I am not jealous of those that can afford them but I would not want to own the card you pulled just because thinking about what they did to make that card is sickening.

You say that you would like to buy a Ty Cobb card. Well by what some of these 1/1 cards go for if you were to sell it I am sure that you would get a pretty penny for it so that might be an option for you.

Whatever you do with it I wish you good luck and enjoy this fine hobby.


Jeff

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Posted By: will watson

a few thoughts:

-first off, wow. give the poor guy a break. some of the early responses (to an honest mistake, no less) were downright rude. i love this board, i enjoy reading it, and you guys have a wealth of knowledge....but jesus, the elitist "country club" attitude is a ridiculous. the term "vintage" is relative. i'm 24 years old, so to me something from the 70's - produced before i was even born - is vintage to me. there is no magical cutoff point between vintage and modern- it's just someone's personal opinion. but congrats on the card. as others have stated, list it on ebay. you'll probably get $2500+ for it.

-second, and i know this goes against the rules of the board, but it's an interesting debate: is vintage game used equipment a good investment? face it, there are a finite amount of vintage HOF gamers out there - and the card companies are destroying stuff at an alarming rate. i'm not talking about jerseys from the 60's and 70's....it seems there is still a lot of stuff in circulation from that era. but prewar? i bet not many HOF jerseys from the 30's are still around. and with the numbers constantly dwindling due to idiotic manufacturers, it seems like a good long term investment.

-third, screw the card companies for doing this. i have no problem with modern jerseys being sliced up, but one of a kind pieces? it's ridiculous to cut up the ONLY KNOWN pinstriped Babe Ruth jersey and the ONLY KNOWN game worn Georges Vezina pads. i don't see why the government doesn't step in and prevent these companies from destroying this stuff. if they can designate houses, trees and buildings as historically preserved sites (making it illegal to destroy them), why can't they do the same for memorabilia?

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Posted By: Julie

BAP (Be a Player) is the name of one comopany who's cutting things up...

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Posted By: will watson

BAP cut up the Vezina pads, but all of the companies are doing it. a few years back, i actually dated the daughter of the head photo editor for Donruss/Playoff. i got to meet some of the higher ups at Donruss at a company party (i think the main guy i talked to was Doug Goddard), and i absolutely tore into em for cutting up some of the unique memorabilia. their response was basically that we don't care what we destroy, as long as we can make some money from it.

screw them.

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Posted By: John

I was initially enamored by the insert cards, but eventually came to the conclusion that the destruction of Jim Thorpe's sideline cape and Babe Ruth's bat was tantamount to cutting the Declaration of Indepence into a million pieces so some of us could have them. Just plain wrong. Irreplaceable pieces of history.

Today's "hobby" is definitely reflective of what professional sports have become. Money driven. High priced packs of cards with super rare inserts that compell individuals to spend thousands of dollars on worthless garbage. I witnessed a perfect example last week. My local card shop will often carry some pre-war supplied by a local collector. I stop in once in a while to check the inventory. The shop deals mainly in wax boxes. A middle aged woman who by the looks of her did not have much money put $1200 on a credit card to purchase some new basketball product. Her stated goal was to get this rare insert that she had seen selling on ebay for $500+. She opened all the cards in the shop while I was there, did not get her insert, and left hundreds of "regular" cards sitting on the counter as she left. The shop owner said that most of his customers did just that and he would sell the left-behind cards as bulk on ebay. No appreciation for the sports or the hobby, just another form of gambling.

An interest and participation in sports is what originally sparked my interest in cards. Early on I developed an appreciation for the history of baseball and football which consequently led to an interest in older cards.
I truly feel bad for the kids that will never experience fifteen cards and a stick of gum for a quarter (and no expectation of appreciation in value). No disrespect to the individual that started this thread, but that insert card epitomizes everything that is wrong with the hobby today. Instead of promoting an interest in sports all of the companies with their multiple products have prostituted sports and the hobby. They create rarity to increase sales. Not that I would waste my time looking, but I would venture to say that every of the hundreds of sport's cards sets issued each year have inserts or short-prints of some type.

Without shame I will freely admit purchasing Topps sets (baseball & football) each year. It is a tradition started by my father in the early 80's. I still will pick up a pack of cards every now and again to hopefully grab a Pirate or a Steeler. Collect what you want whether new or old, but let interest and respect for the sports (or simply collecting) be the primary motive. Money ruins everything

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Posted By: Rob

I know exactly how you feel. And that is why we were destined to this forum.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I don't think there is anything wrong with a sweepstakes but the inserts have been way out of hand for years. Pack busting has always been gambling; it just used to be benign, mild gambling, and you didn't ditch the other cards just because you didn't get the top card. I recall running down the NYC street from the candy store as a boy with my friends trailing me yelling "no trades" at the top of my lungs when I pulled a 1975-76 Stan Mikita from a pack of Topps hockey (there was a sport played in cold places with sticks called "hockey" once upon a time; I miss it...). The shame for the kids is that the excitement of finding a card of a favorite player has been replaced with the excitement of finding a valuable card of your dad or grandfather's favorite player.