Hunting those elusive T207s

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Posted By: TBob

Does anyone have any of the following T207s for sale in any decent condition?
Rath, Ragan, Rassmeussen, W. Miller, Tyler, Pelty, Sweeney, Kling, Kuhn, Donlin, Ellis and George.
Why are the T207 "tougher cards" so dang tough? You would think someone out there has a bunch to sell. I know the old "brownies" aren't as popular as the T205s and T206s, but there has to be some floating around besides the same 40-45 which always appear on ebay.
Thanks
TBob
TrophyBob@aol.com

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Posted By: Jay Behrens

I have decided that all t207s shall be mine, so you will never see them But seriously, the tough 207s are just that, very tough. When I was wheeling dealing in the 80s I never saw many 207s, so I never really tried to collect them, which is why I am now. I saw a friends complete set of 207s and I love the way it looks, but it is not that easy of a set to complete.

Jay

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Posted By: Brian K. Hodes

I'll check mine Bob but I think I just have the usual suspects.
Good luck,
Brian H.

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Posted By: Thomas

Hi,

While everyone is searching through their T207's....let me know if anyone comes across any off conditioned ones that they would be willing to part with. I am trying to put together a set and condition is far from being the most important consideration. Money..or lack of..is the biggest concern! So if anyone has any banged up T207 Cicottes or Weavers...chewed up Speakers or Woods...etc etc I can promise you I would give them a good home.

Thanks,
Thomas

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Posted By: runscott

...might still be there

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Posted By: Thomas

Hi,

I saw that Joe Wood, and it was in a condition that I would have no trouble buying(some paper loss, but nothing seriously affecting the picture). Unfortunately for me(not the seller)the bidding went somewhat higher than I was willing to pay for a card in that condition. If I remember correctly it went for between $60-$70. I know the cards are rare, but that just seemed a little steep for a card in that condition, for me anyway.

Take care,
Thomas

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Posted By: TBob

Yes the Wood was beat up but it is an indication of how rare they are when a card in that condition can go for that much. I know some collectors are put off by the fact that the rare cards in the set are really rare and some don't care for the brown backgrounds and others don't like the fact there are so few HOFers in the set. You would think that with this SEEMING indifference to the set that prices would be lower and cards more plentiful but they are not. Thomas, I was lucky enough to hit Mike Wheat's recent acquisition page on just the right day and grab 5 of the rarer ones, all in G-VG but impossible to find, for peanuts (comparatively speaking). I look back now on the fact I consigned a near set in around EX to Mastro 3 years ago with astonishment. Had I chopped it up and put it on ebay card by card I could have doubled or maybe even tripled the price result. It went for around $4000 (plus Bill paid me $2500 for my Lowdermilk that was "lost" in his offices before the set was put on ebay). It lacked the Lewis cards and W. Miller but all the other rare suspects were there, less about 7 or 8 of the tougher backs. Big mistake. Should have held on to the set...

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Posted By: runscott

How difficult is the Napoleon back? I just got one in the mail and it got me to wondering if there is a "backs multliplier" list for the t206 and t205 sets, like what they put together for t206's on the t206 museum site.

Even "guesstimates" would be nice. Thanks

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Posted By: jay behrens

I would be curious to know all the different backs. The ones that I am aware of are 2 different Recruit factories, Napoleon, Red Cross and Broadleaf and I believe Cycle but not sure on this one.

Jay

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Posted By: Thomas

There was a Tinker that went off today for roughly the same amount as the Wood...but in much better shape. Now I am far from being an expert on the set, is the Wood that much rarer than the Tinker to warrant that amount of money in such bad shape? Or did someone just REALLY REALLY want the Joe Wood?
As for why they aren't as popular as the T206's and T205's...got me on that one. Personally I think there is something really classy looking about the set. Some of the artists renditions are top notch....I particularly like the Vaughn card(which I don't have yet).

Thomas

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Posted By: TBob

The Napoleon backs are somewhat of a puzzle to me. Although it has long been conceded that they are found only on the common cards, they are much, much tougher than the Recruit backs which are normally found on commons. In fact, I see fewer Napoleon backs than I do Red Cycle, Broadleaf and Anonymous backs. If you are strictly a back collector, Napoleons may be a heck of a deal when you can find them. The Red Cycle, Broadleaf and Anonymous (more on them later) can only be found on the tougher cards, never on the commons, thus their scarcity because the tougher cards are just that tough!
Now on to the most confusing and often erroneous subject- the Anonymous backs. They were once thought to be the toughest of the Big 3 backs but I find that they (Red Cycle, Broadleaf and Anonymous) are all about equally tough. I won't even get in to the subject of Red Cross backs of which only 5 are known to exist. Here is the thing about Anonymous backs- you need to be careful in distinguishing between Anonymous Factory No. 3 from Louisiana and Factory No. 25 from Virginia. It is still thought by some that the Factory 3 cards are in fact Coupon cards, although no one will ever know for sure. The Factory No. 3 cards can THEORETICALLY be found on the back of every single card in the T207 set. Thus if you have a card with an Anonymous No. 3 back you can NOT assume it is a rare card. On the other hand, if you have a Factory No. 25 card, you can. They are found ONLY on the rare cards, just like Red Cycles and Broadleafs.
Clear as mud?

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Posted By: TBob

Thomas, that was my Tinker which sold and yes I was surprised that it didn't go higher. I was able to upgrade recently so put this one on ebay. A guy who had purchased several T207s from me won it so I was glad for him but it is strange that with zillions (comparatively speaking) of Bresnahans, Marquards, Chances, McGraws and even Careys available, that a Tinker wouldn't go higher as it is not an easy HOFer to find in the set, although all the HOFers in the T207 set have one similarity, they are all Recruit or Napoleon (common) back cards. The Tinker, Speaker and McKechnie HOF cards are all tougher than the other HOFers, in my oppinion.
Smokey Joe Wood's popularity drives the prices of his card up, plus Wood is a very tough card to find, even though it has a Recruit/Napoleon back only.
I am beginning to believe that the only way to complete this set is to buy a near set or complete set from Mastro/Oser/Hunt and bust it out, keeping the needed cards and putting the rest on ebay. If anyone spots a set and is interested in going in with me or a couple of others, let me know.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I don't collect this set at all, but I do collect boxing cards from the N and T era, and anything from Lorillard's Red Cross label in that era is excruciatingly rare, even in a set that is otherwise relatively common. Take the T219 set, a 1911 issue that is readily obtained for about $10 a card in ex. A set of Red Cross backs sold for over $2,500 last year, and was well worth it. I've gotta believe that the Red Cross back from any sports set is rare.

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Posted By: Thomas

TBob wrote "Here is the thing about Anonymous backs- you need to be careful in distinguishing between Anonymous Factory No. 3 from Louisiana and Factory No. 25 from Virginia. It is still thought by some that the Factory 3 cards are in fact Coupon cards, although no one will ever know for sure. "

Ok I have a question, what is a coupon card? I've see that term used a few times but I am not quite sure what is meant by it. I recently got a T207 Anonymous Factory 3 from Louisiana so it got me thinking about what was wrote about them a few weeks back.

Thanks,
Thomas

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Posted By: Pete Z.

I got the following 3 cards this past weekend - a T207 Tom Downey Broadleaf F/G, a Devore Briggs caramel F, and an E. Collins Williams caramel F.

I paid for all three together and I'm trying to get a bead on whether or not I overpaid. I benefitted somewhat by using the 2005 SCD to price the Downey which was listed as a common, but I was wondering what I could expect to get on eBay for each card, graded, in particular the Downey with the Broadleaf back.
Thanks in advance,
Pete

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Posted By: Robert

This is interesting.
I havn't found Napoleons to be even close to as tough to red cycle.
robert a

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Posted By: dan mckee

Bob, email me at home, I may have 1 or 2 extra but will want a toughie I need in trade, dan.

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

My swag...

When this thread started 3 years ago, an F/G Downey was around $30; now, it's probably around $75-100. The prices on scarce t207's have gone up significantly, although I'm going to stick with my prediction that this is tenuous - if 2 or 3 of the usually active people drop out, they'll come back to earth fast.


Edited to add: this is one set where graded examples have not commanded a premium over raw cards. The Barnings and others sold a lot of tough ungraded cards last year and they fetched high prices.

Bill

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

I had gotten a vgx Wood with a Napoleon back and a Ex Works with a broadleaf from Scott Brockelman, though I traded them months ago, I recieved them back in trade recently.I do think that Ralph Works is one of the absolute toughest and a great looking vintage card.

Thanks Scott for them and Iam sure glad I have em back !

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Posted By: Pete Z.

Is the $75-100 you quote for the Downey with the rare back?
Thanks,
Pete

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Posted By: Bill Cornell

Pete - yes, $75-100 for the Downey. That would apply to any of the backs it comes with (Anonymous, Broadleaf, Cycle).

Bill

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Posted By: tbob

I wondered why Dan sent me an email about some T207s I needed when I had completed the set a year ago. It's funny to see a post pop back up after 3 years! For anyone wanting to complete the set, you have my condolences. It was hard in 1995, very difficult in 2003 and unless you are willing to shell out some major bucks, looks to be almost impossible in 2005. My words of wisdom, for what they are worth, are to go after any scarce back card you can in any condition. You can ALWAYS find a buyer when you upgrade. If a Sweeney, Downey, Pelty, Donlin or Ward Miller shows up-GRAB IT!!!!!!!! I think they are the fearsome fivesome.

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Posted By: joe maples

I feel for anyone attemptng to collect this complete set. I'm just trying to collect all Detroit players. I need Bauman, have never seen on ebay, did not see Bauman at the National either. Also need Moriarty and Mullin with D on cap. I have Covington, Gainor, Lively, Mullin(no D), and Stanage with Recruit backs. Delanhanty and Drake with Napoleon back and Works with Cycle back.

Enjoy Joe

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I like Henriksen, the "viking", just cracks me up that they would refer to him like that.

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

The last I checked, Gar Miller still has a couple of Napoleon Backed HOF'ers on his website - I don't have the link handy, but it can be found in the links page to the bulletin board. As far as scarcity, the Red Cycles are tough - I think I have only owned around a dozen of them, while I have owned over 60 Napoleon backs.

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Posted By: Steve Dawson

I would really appreciate it.

I'm going after the HOFers in the set and am still looking for Bender, Chance, Hooper, McKechnie, Speaker and Wallace.

I'd prefer them in PSA 4/SCD 50. If you can help, please email me.

Thanks.

Steve

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Posted By: Bob Marquette

Benders and Chances shouldn't be a problem if you are patient a nice one will pop up on ebay. There was a really nice EX+ McKechnie that just went off on ebay yesterday, guessed you missed that one. Hooper will be a problem, that is a tougher card than most believe and seldom seen. Wallace doesn't pop up very often either and usually in lower condition. Speakers come up from time to time, usually in lower condition. If you want an EXish one, be prepared to pay through the teeth...

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Posted By: scott brockelman

steve,
i have several of the t207's you need please email me by clicking on the link in my post.

scott