T206 "Honus" Wagner PSA 2 on Ebay!

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Posted By: Mike P.

I wonder how this slipped through PSAs Quality Control(if that even exists)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5159750755>

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Posted By: Trae R.

Haha, that's awesome.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Wow, a PSA2 H.Wagner on ebay - this deserves media attention. I wonder if PSA tries to get it back?

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Posted By: Trae R.

I asked the guy what the reserve was, and said the same thing - "better hope no one reports it to PSA, or there's a good chance it'll be removed from the market". I did a cert verification, and sure enough that puppy is real.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

At last they have lost all credibility...If I was that seller, I would not take less than five figures for the card and I would post it every week until PSA bites the bullet.

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Posted By: Josh

Someone shady will wind up paying what the seller wants for the card because the flip could easily translate into a $10K+ scam. I can't believe PSA would let this get out. They need to quietly win that auction and buy the card back.

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Posted By: Reid Bruce

The real question if PSA buys back the card...do they pay the Honus or the Heinie price?

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Bidding is over $500. The high bidder is a "0" feedback buyer. Josh brought up a good point - I assume you meant that someone could "carefully crack the slab" (ala WIWAG) and replace it with a beat up reprint of Honus. You would hope that there wouldn't be anyone willing to shovel out tens of thousands of dollars for it, but you never know...

Like the saying goes, "there's a sucker born every minute"

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Posted By: Trae R.

I called PSA and the fella in customer service said "Cool, I'll take a look at it and make sure the information gets to the right person". Hopefully this solves the problem. After Judges post it seemed like a disservice not to call. A reprint in that holder would easily create plenty of problems - especially since it's cert verifiable and all.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Somewhere in a jail cell...

the guys from WIWAG are DROOLING over this one!

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Posted By: john/z28jd

If they could crack the case and put a reprint in there why cant thye just crack the case and put a different label in and not sell a reprinted card.In this case the card looks real but people are bidding on the label only

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Posted By: Trae R.

Right you are, John.

Things that makes you say "Hmmm..."

Guess we'll just see how it all pans out.

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Posted By: Morrie

If I wasn't scared before, I was when I saw who else was involved in the bidding...

Check it out

I elected not to renew my PSA membership when they refused to make any public statements addressing the various f-ups and scandals that have plagued them over the past few years. I have yet to see anything that makes me regret my decision.

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

The real question is -- is this a real PSA holder.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

The guy with zero feedback is probably just trying to hide his true indentity so no one will know where it ends up.

My Theory

Lee

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Posted By: Trae R.

Response from seller:

"Thanks for your interest in the card. I'd prefer not to give out the reserve. But if the reserve is not met, I'll let you know and we can talk then. PSA really wants it back. I think it just adds to its' rarity. I'll keep you posted."

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Posted By: Morrie

The cert number on the card is no longer listed in their database, so it will no longer show up as a Honus Wagner if someone does a lookup through their site.

So, there will still be a flip out there for a PSA2 t206 Honus (assuming this thing sells), but at least it won't track back to a valid number in the PSA database.

Funniest is what the seller added to his auction description to try and spin things:

"ADDITION AS OF JANUARY 24, 2005 8:00 p.m.EST PSA contacted me today and demanded the card back. When I refused to send it to them they told me that they would uncertify their own certification. It appears that they deleted it from their system. I'm not even sure they can do that. I think that they just made a rare one of a kind card a little rarer, if that is possible."

Has somebody told this guy that the card isn't rare, the holder is, and that the holder no longer actually has any market value since the certification number doesn't correspond to anything they will admit to having graded?

Of course, two months from now, they'll probably use that cert # for a Pete Rose rookie...

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Under the cert # in their database, PSA should change the listed card to a Britney Spears or a Power Rangers card. The value potential of the holder would be shot.

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Posted By: Jason Smith

Looks like PSA decertified the card, which is the right thing for them to do, but I agree that they should try to buy it back for whatever it takes.

I collect PSA graded cards pretty much exclusively, and I am absolutely infuriated about this one. You would think that each time they grade a Heine Wagner that they would really make the point of looking at what label they printed. I guess they will now that the cat's out of the bag. I have a few mislabeled cards, but nothing ridiculous like this. I appreciate PSA for what I do, buying cards on ebay. I trust PSA more than I trust someone who might sell me a trimmed card, and that's the basics of the reason I use them. I've been burned on a trimmed card on ebay. I also like the registry feature and sharing photos of my collection.

This is the kind of thing that makes me angry. I pay PSA too much to have this kind of thing happen.

I hope it's a fabrication, but someone has a great criminal imagination to fabricate a PSA holder, find a Honus Wagner psa cert# etc...
Still, that's a possibility, though I bet they just messed it up.
Jason Smith

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Posted By: BRIANKW

Hi Guys and gal,
I know how much fun it is to hammer PSA OR ANY grading company when they make a mistake, but this could have easily been done by a disgruntled employee. I had one that nearly destroyed a brand new 40,000 truck by putting sugar in the gas tank. So this could be another PSA "Bone head" move or simply an unhappy minimum wage worker who didn't get a raise on his last review. I've got 90 employees and I know we make mistakes everyday, so I guess I understand the difficulties involved, and tend to give all the Legitimate Grading companies a little lee way. Something to think about.

Be well Brian

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Link.

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Posted By: leon

you buy a holder you are making a mistake....unless of course you collect holders......regards all

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Posted By: davidcycleback

that if there's any holder that's collectable, it would be this one.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

The fact that PSA decertified this card is positive yet it is disturbing. This means that they can decertify any card at any time with a few simple key strokes. Lets say a card goes up for sale (anywhere, most likely ebay). If they see a mistake they made, no problem - decertify the card and pretend it never happened.

What's the solution? I wouldn't expect PSA to pay a hefty price to have this card returned. I would hope that the owner of this card would try to work out something with PSA and I would hope the PSA invests a little more into a QAQC department.

You have to begin to wonder (perhpas not if but) when PSA (or other reputable grading service) will be sued because they were negligent. What will that do to PSA (or SGC or...)? What will it do for graded cards in general?

SGC paid Mr. Mint a substantial amount for an error that he didn't detect and which SGC authenticated. From what I understand Mr. Mint wanted SGC to pay him an amount that he potentially would have made from the sale of a legitimate rare (graded) card.

I'm not a doomsayer but I have to wonder where all this is leading. Cheaper cards, I hope.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

"This means that they can decertify any card at any time with a few simple key strokes."

That says volumes about PSA's business practices. When they make a mistake, they sweep it under the carpet as quickly as they can rather than stepping up to deal with it. It also means that any of your precious slabs can be decertified at the drop of a hat with you having no say in it.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

What a CLASSIC. Both Dan and Bruce seemed to disappear about that time. I won't comment on "4 sharp corners" since I don't know if you and Adam are still friends, but that was also interesting.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

In my opinion, decertification is inadequate. Many people buy holdered cards without thinking of verifying with the slabbing company that the card's status remains unchanged.

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Posted By: Marc S.

<<"This means that they can decertify any card at any time with a few simple key strokes."

That says volumes about PSA's business practices. When they make a mistake, they sweep it under the carpet as quickly as they can rather than stepping up to deal with it. It also means that any of your precious slabs can be decertified at the drop of a hat with you having no say in it. >>


I do not agree with how PSA has dealt with this - but what is the correct way? It seems like the seller/owner of this card wants to hold PSA hostage for hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars to correct this error. Yes - PSA made a major mistake, and it is one of dozens that they seem to consistently make on pre-war issues. But to have a seller try and extort a thousand dollars for a PSA 2 card in recompense? That's just wrong, too.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Perhaps one of the attorneys can explain why holding PSA hostage for thousands of dollars could be a suitable form of punishment for their negligence and to encourage them to institute more (some) rigorous QA procedures.

Personally, I think their decertifying a card they don't own is wrong. As long as the card is in the general marketplace, I think they have a legal duty to maintain that certification number. Once they own the card, they can do whatever they like. But people pay a lot of money for that certification number and like other have stated, PSA shouldn't have the ability to eliminate the existance of something you have purchased, at their whim.

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

That clearly isn't Honus Wagner.

I agree that holding them hostage is ridiculous.

I assume they print these labels off using some sort of software - why can't they have some sort of "red flag" indicator in their database that would go off whenever they attempt to print a label for a "conspicuous" card? The twinkie muncher would then be required to double-check, e.g: "you are about to print a label for a t206 Wagner - better look again son"

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Posted By: PASJD

I wasn't around back then, but by that standard the posts these days seem kinda tame. A kinder, gentler, forum?

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Posted By: leon

The owner needs to send the card in and have the holder replaced. That's what I would do, and have done, with SGC. Hold them hostage? Right. Don't think so... In this instance I "almost" don't blame PSA for what they did and I also don't agree with the sellers actions. regards

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Posted By: DSP

Rather than removing it from their database completely why doesn't PSA just acknowledge their error, e.g. "T206 Heine Wagner PSA 2 MISLABELED "HONUS". IF YOU ARE THE OWNER OF THIS CARD PLEASE RETURN IT TO PSA FOR CORRECTION FREE OF CHARGE" or something similar.

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Posted By: Trae R.

I like that idea DSP.

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Posted By: pete

is it possible that this guy found a PSA 2 id number to a real honus wagner and made the label? you see PSA labels everywhere, and everyone already knows there's crooks (and suckers) born everyday...then when that new buyer checks with PSA, he finds that it is PSA graded...

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Although I am not a PSA lover, they made a huge mistake. I do not feel there actions are wrong they are being held hostage for the almighty dollar. I still think they need to repurchase the card at the selling price, take there lumps and move on.

I wonder what kind of discussion this is getting on the CU board?

It is nice to know that a holder can become a collectible just with a couple of keystrokes. There sure are some idiots out there. Can I please pay $100 for a shiny insert todday that has little to no value in 1 year, and keep doing this for years? I just don't understand the logic to alot of collecting. I guess it is my money to spend and I will spend as I like.

Lee

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Posted By: jay behrens

I don't begrudge the owner of the card holding PSA hostage over it. Mr Mint set the precedent when he held SGC hostage over the fake Doyle and demanded that he get the value of what the card would have sold for it was a real Doyle. At least SGC handled the situation correctly.

If PSA is going to have a list of certified cards, then they had better not be decertifying cards without actually having the slab in hand. What's to stop someone from cooking up a wrong card in a certified slab in Photoshop, posting it on eBay, and then contacting PSA saying "Hey look, mislabeled card, you better decertify it." Nice way to screw over people without having to actually have the person's cards in hand.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Mike P.

I read this excuse...err...reason from the collectors universe MB.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=11&threadid=360755

"PSA had the serial numbered reserved for a honus Wagner. Accidently it was issued to this Henie Wagner 1 st mistake like this at PSA and we have graded over 8 millions cards. The disgruntled customer won't return the card so we could correct our error. We will change the online look up to Henie Wagner. This should put the issue to rest. "

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Posted By: Scott Forrest

Rather than accept responsibility for a mistake they make up a ridiculous story and claim it's their first mistake of that type. Yeah, that's a pretty special serial number - don't blame them for reserving it for Honus Wagner.

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Posted By: PASJD

Invalid Item
This listing (5159750755</a) has been removed by eBay. Make sure that you've entered the item number correctly

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Posted By: petecld

Doesn't this violate eBay's legal defense which basically is that they are just an impartial 3rd party offering a venue to connect sellers & buyers?

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Posted By: Trae R.

"Invalid Item
This listing (5159750755) has been removed by eBay. Make sure that you've entered the item number correctly"

Good thing I saved THIS then!

"A true 1 of 1. There is no rarer. Here it is, the Holy Grail. (heh, heh) If you are the winner of this auction you could say that you are the proud owner of a PSA slabbed and registered (Reg. no. 11839843) T206 Honus Wagner graded a 2. According to t206 museum.com, a PSA 1 sold for about $92,000 a couple of years ago. What you would have was a T206 PSA (mis)labeled Honus ("Heinie") Wagner. This is the perfect space saver. A one of a kind gift for the T206 collector. And, who knows? With all of the ghost print and error cards commanding premiums, what is a label error on what just happens to be the most sought after card in the hobby worth?. You decide. When the 100th anniversary is here in a couple of years, this card could be worth much more than for what you can win it here for. Comes with a sharp PSA felt cover. Good Luck bidding.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Jan-24-05 at 17:08:01 PST, seller added the following information:

ADDITION AS OF JANUARY 24, 2005 8:00 p.m.EST PSA contacted me today and demanded the card back. When I refused to send it to them they told me that they would uncertify their own certification. It appears that they deleted it from their system. I'm not even sure they can do that. I think that they just made a rare one of a kind card a little rarer, if that is possible."

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Posted By: PASJD

Ebay does remove items at the request of PSA (for example an item listed as "GAI 9 PSA". My guess, and of course it is just that, is that PSA asked that the item be removed because it is "no longer" a valid PSA graded card.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

PSA obviously took its business ethics lessons from the Nixon White House. PSA should have simply owned up to the mistake and listed it as such in its registry as soon as it became known. Instead, they tried to hide the mistake by deleting the item from their registry. Covering up something nasty is par for the course with PSA. They never, ever simply step up and act like adults when they make mistakes; it always has to require some arm-twisting. I had to threaten them several years ago when they still had turnaround guarantees and they missed the deadline on about 60 of my cards and then reneged on their comp submittal policy, Dan had to sue them to get paid for the card they lost, Andy had to twist their arms to get them to deal with the fake Ruth rookie they slabbed, and now this situation. I have no respect for any company that treats its customers as shabbily as PSA does. Seems to me like the customer is always wrong with them.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Gee, imagine that. PSA pulled the thread talking about this card

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Billy

I am going to pile on PSA as well. Their T201 holders suck and are always getting deep crack scratches any time they are either mishandled or shipped regular mail in insuffecient padding. (Not many sellers do a David B packing job)

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Posted By: steve k

No surprise there that the thread was pulled because some guy who has posted a total of three times on that forum went into a screaming tirade about PSA.

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Posted By: jay behrens

steve, that would be me you are refering to. And what does the number of times a person has posted have to do with anything? I haven't seen you post much here. Should I dismiss the things you have to say?

And please define a screaming tirade? I only used capital letters for proper puncutation.

The truth hurts and PSA is incapable of dealing with it. I find the whole PSA apologist/lemming mentality interesting. The company has proven to be less than above board with it's dealings and seems absolutely incapable of handling any crisis or mistake properly. More lemming need to leave the herd and see what else is being said about PSA instead of the censored pablum that is found on the CU board. Express a disenting opinion and get it delelted.

Jay

Wow upside down is Mom. Mom upside down is what dad wants to see.

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Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

With a call CU (PSA) can have auctions pulled off of ebay.

It is premature for them to have removed the card from the public cert verification. I suppose if this were a flip that had been counterfeited they just removed a 200K card from the online verification, at least temporarily. CU did the same thing to Adam when he listed the Cobb back on ebay when he was unwilling to send them the card back to reholder.

CU (PSA) rarely will admit they are wrong and this has been their M O for as long as I have been submitting. I guess they think that if they try and suppress, deny and control every "error" they will be able to maintain an untarnished reputation.

The ultimate price will be paid after the conclusion of the suit that is going on now between Real Legends and CU about re the WIWAG debacle. Based on the list of witnesses, the court transcript will be a very interesting read.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

any docket or other info, like what court?