Am I Being Unreasonable?

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Posted By: Gilbert Porter

OK - I've seen a few of these on here before, and have finally come up with a situation where I need a sanity check.

A few weeks ago I purchase a 1943 MP&Co strip from an eBay seller. Here is the link:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=5142334322&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT

The strip arrived in a FedEx envelope - no cardboard backing or protection. But here's the kicker - someone FOLDED the strip (badly, I might add, so that the strip is almost separated down the middle and one of the middle cards has been creased multiple times).

I have emailed the seller twice, and have received two replies. As best I can tell, the Seller is claiming either that it was already folded when they listed it, or that I should have expected it to be folded since how else would it fit in a FedEx envelope. But that either way it is worth more than I paid and I should be happy.

Needless to say, the Seller has refused to give me any credit or adjustment. It is still worth what I paid, and I want it for my collection. So I am keeping it, but .......

Would you agree that I should give this Seller a bad feedback?

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Posted By: canjond

To me that sounds ridiculous. I have sold and bought plenty of "odd" sized items and never had such a thing happen - you just make your own envelope. I would leave a negative feedback that says "A negative is what you should expect when you're a freakin idiot". But that is just my opinion.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

This seller had sold nine items prior to your purchase, including plates, fake spagetti and other OT items. Clearly it is his responsibility to package his products properly. Similarly, it is your responsibility to recognize what you are dealing with, and if necessary to insure yourself against loss.

Since you feel that the cards are still worthwhile eventhough they are creased, you made the correct decision regarding insurance. I recommend that you consider what you have to gain by leaving negative feedback, versus what you have to lose.

That the seller is new and will make the mistakes common to newbies is documented in his feedback. That he thinks it is ok to fold a strip of cards comes with his apparent lack of experience. That he takes no responsibility for his mistakes sounds like he needs a smack upside de head.

But you smack him and you get smacked back. It is obvious to any purchaser that he is inexperienced, so I think the risk/reward ratio is not there for a negative nor a neutral.

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Posted By: JimB

He absolutely deserves negative feedback and an explanation.
JimB

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Posted By: petecld

Gilbert,

I bought a magazine that was NM in the photo, dumb jerk mails it in a bubble pack with no cardboard, no wrapping, nothing.... needless to say it was barely a GD condition magazine when I got it. Do I feel bad asking for a refund - NO. It's common sense to protect an item for shipping. I also received a card that the guy put in cardboard but didn't completely cover the card and the tape he use was STUCK TO THE CARD. I didn't leave negative feedback only because I received a refund.

I was going to say leave the neg. feedback if you didn't get your money back but you said you are keeping the item so I don't see how you can be so upset enough that the item was damaged to slam the guy but then keep what you got? In a way aren't you rewarding his stupidity? ...unless you demanded he use a Fedex envelope then that would be a different story. It would be nice if he gave you back something for the error but if that doesn't happen then what? You are completely in the right asking for a refund but what message are you sending by agreeing to keep the item?

If you are happy paying what you did for the item in the condition it is in now and are keeping the item then maybe just leave a NEUTRAL saying the seller has poor shipping habits.



General thought:
I think it's interesting that people always seem to be more worried about negative feedback then being out $XXX amount of dollars they spent on a deal gone bad. I don't care if a seller leaves me neg. feedback all day long - I want my money back.

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Posted By: dennis

it's the sellers responsibility to pack items as to insure they arrive in the same fashion as when purchased. a $200.00 baseball card is valuable. any moron should be able to pack it right.he deserves a negative for his stupidity!

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Posted By: Darren J. Duet

The seller deserves to be booted.

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Posted By: qualitycards.com

The sellers claim about fitting it into a FedEx envelope is insane. I've rec'd a baseball bat via FedEx, luckily it wasn't chopped into slivers and inserted in their standard envelope. FedEx will apply their labels to pacjages other then their standard envelopes.

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Posted By: Julie

insanity...trying to get it in their cheapest envelope? Too bad!

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Posted By: Scott Elkins

Can't believe he/she is that stupid!

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Posted By: jay behrens

I say him ding him. The neg hurts him worse than it hurts you and maybe next time, he packages the item properly. I'd say leave a neitral, but folding something that is condition sensative is just stupid.

Jay

The difference between genius and insanity is acceptance.

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Posted By: MW

Gil,

Where is the present fold in the strip? Is it clear from the auction images that the fold was not originally present? Also, can you supply some content from the seller's email explaining exactly what happened? Thank you.

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Posted By: DD

He has another one up there now.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=86852&item=5147984635&rd=1

Description on this one says it has been folded in half.

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Posted By: Gilbert Porter

MY ORIGINAL EMAIL (PS - I guess it was a Priority Mail envelope instead of FedEx):

"I have received this item and an extremely upset. The strip was folded in half and placed unprotected in a Priority Mail envelope, causing several bends and creases - the center fold is so severe that the strip is almost split in two. This is unacceptable. Please advise what credit you are prepared to offer for this - I believe that $75 to $100 is appropriate ."

FIRST RESPONSE FROM SELLER:
"hello, this card was tooken to a card dealer and we were told the card the way it was is worth about 500.00 and yes it was bent in half for shipping reasons that is how we got the item and we did say in the bottom of the page other information and it specified purchase as is. if it was mail damage then your need to go to the post office because the package was insured for 200.00. thank u if there is anything else i can do for u please write back."

I then wrote back and noted to them that their posting mentioned nothing about the crease and that the images on the listing clearly showed that the creases did not exist (believe me, they are VERY obvious and are not in the scans). They then responded with:

"hello we never intentional keep this information from u there is no other way to mail the item it does not fit in something that long. yes it was sold to many others that way and yes they where happy with there purchase. your the first to complain about this situation. but if u had a question u knew how to reach us and it does say as issssssssssss."

It's hard to debate an issue when faced with such an articulate opponent . . . . . .If you read the two emails together, it is clear that the card was bent by them (even though at one point they claim that it was that way when they got it).

I decided that I would keep it - though it is a different question whether I would have bought it at this price in the first place. Hence my only question as to whether to post negative feedback or "stay above the fray." Though, in truth, I think I just wanted to vent about yet another amazing stupidity . . . . .

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Posted By: JimB

This guy who intentionally folds an item that loses value when condition deteriorates, and seems incapapable of writing a coherent English sentence NEEDS a negative mark. Consider it doing a favor to anybody else who may come across this guy. You owe it to the rest of us. Have compassion for the next unsuspecting bidder.
JimB

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Posted By: Julie

I know they're primitive, but I thought they were also rare (I only have Joe D)

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Posted By: Aaron

Go on, Gilbert, neg him. You know you want to.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

It is worth the negative retaliation hit. Just be sure you strike first so he cannot claim it was retaliatory.

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Posted By: MW

Gil,

It appears the seller was/is genuinely ignorant about the factor that condition plays in determining the value of a baseball card or piece of sports memorabilia. I would try to reason with them as best I could and if some sort of financial compensation were not given, a negative would not be unreasonable. After you leave a negative, however, it will probably preclude any further negotiation or financial compensation from the seller.

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

send him a pair of some skid marked undies and see that if he would accept that. If so, then tell this guy that you now can accept his card.

You now have to find someone who would do that to a pair of your good shorts !

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Posted By: honus3415

As the crowd chanting......NEG......NEG......NEG

First, take a step backward...

Look at the ad!!! That's a red light for bidding to start with. Precise and to the point but in no way the description of anyone that knew anything about vintage paper items.

So...let's see why this person might be legit by researching what else this individual had sold in the last 30 days....hmmm not good...bunch of glass suff.

Now if the fold is not pictured and occured after the sale, that is ignorant...really ignorant...but there are many levels of common sense...theirs just happens to be really low with regards to paper collectibles.

Honest mistake??? Who knows...Contact them ... if they don't reply ... I'd be happy they were authentic and be thankful it wasn't a larger transaction.

Leave a negative? Although it is greatly deserved...I think that I'd just try to forget it and move on.

Like I told my arguing kids for years.....The first one to stop WINS.

Why? .... Because the first person (right or wrong) in any conflict that can move forward, is the one with the greatest character. It's just that sports/competition has taught us all that the last one standing is the winner....Good for sports...Bad for life.

Turning the negatives of life into positives is one big key to a happy life. I personally find forgiving to be a greater spirit booster than the short-lived shallow feeling of standing over a pummelled opponent with my arms in the air and my foot on their chest.

Ya win some... ya lose some.... lesson learned.... move on.... but then that's just my opinion.

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Posted By: Gilbert Porter

At the end of the day, I agree with some of the comments here - that the Seller is ignorant but did not purposely conceal or manipulate the situation. It does, however, point out yet another problem on eBay, even when we get past the problem of crooks and swindlers.

I decided to leave no feedback. Seller seems to have learned enough to list the problem on its new listing. And I sent a further email educting the Seller that the strips are much more valuable if not folded and, therefore, they should not fold them (and simply charge more for shipping if they need to).

It's the holiday season. I don't feel like fighting.

It is interesting to me that they have multiple copies of this strip, since it is relatively rare to come across any of the strips - much less the Dimaggio. But, then again, last time I bought some of these strips I ended up with eight of them from the same source. . . . . .

Thanks for all the comments.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

a few years ago. The seller, not a card person, put three postcards into an oversized padded mailer without any kind of stiffeners or holders and the postman mangled it. Turned three nice near mint cards into three vg cards. I contacted the seller and he refunded my money, did not even want the cards back, although I offered to keep them and take a partial refund. That is honesty.

The apologists above are just plain wrong. It is basic common sense that if you sell anything to someone, they have the right to expect it to be delivered in the same shape as when they bought it. If Sears delivered your new fridge with a scratch on the door because they forgot to box it up correctly, anyone here would demand that they make good and would send it back and demand a refund if they did not. I don't see how this is any different. The seller sold you an item, damaged it in transit by bad packaging and you should eat it??

Ding him.

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Posted By: Scott

I once received a t205 Cobb floating helplessly in a small envelope. Miraculously there was no damage. I didn't say anything to the seller, but you would think that even if they knew nothing about baseball cards, the amount I paid for it would warrant at least a smidgeon of protection.

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Posted By: Howie

If he has multiple copies then see if you can exchange yours for one he didn't fold in half. Tell him the only reason you bid was that it looked undamaged, and you never would've paid what you did had you known it was going to be folded in half to ship. You said he mentions the fold in the new item so he is probably planning on folding it in half again to ship. The Post office has a long triangular priority mail box for shipping rolled up posters and such. It should cost the exact same to ship as the envelope. So see if you can trade for a good one.

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Posted By: Judge Dred

Gilbert,

I don't want to stir things up but did you happen to notice that this new auction is using the same photos as the older auction (you won). To me this is irksome because I would expect to get the item that was pictured.

Just out of curiosity, where is the crease located?

Also, you got the raw end of that deal. It's sad to see you had to be on the learning curve of someone that doesn't know what they're doing with collectible paper materials.

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Posted By: sagard

Politely ask if yours can be exchanged for a non-creased but similar item. In the end you are correct in every way including that it probably isn't worth and extended fight over.

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Posted By: Joe P.

This is what I'm reading:
They're suppose to be scarce.
The seller deals quite a bit in glasses and plates, and doesn't understand that a folded card would be as unacceptable as a broken plate.

Let me skip beyond that, and get to the meat of my question.
Is it just me and Julie.
All of us can see that the seller is not hip about card conditioning, but somehow he knows about the cards worth and scarcity.
Like Julie, if they're that scarce.
RED FLAG.
Where does he get the multiples from?
Are they real?
Am I being too cautiously sensitive?
I rate those questions higher than the whether I should give a negative or not.

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Posted By: MW

Gil,

I think you made the right decision. I also like Howie's idea.

Edited to add: Playing devil's advocate, JudgeDred might have a very good point. Perhaps the seller listed the best strip he/she had available with the intention of sending a different one to each winning bidder.

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Posted By: Gilbert Porter

OK - I am now officially done with this. Life is way too short.

Thought you would enjoy the final exchange with this seller. I will not ruin this by trying to add commentary:

MY EMAIL:

Let me be clear on a few things, since you do not seem to be familiar with the significance of this discussion. First of all, your scan from the auction clearly shows that this fold did not exist at the time that you scanned it - therefore it is obvious that you folded it as part of the shipment process.

Folding it for shipping is - to be blunt - stupid. Most of the value of the strip is based on its condition - a folded strip is worth, at most, 1/3 of what an unfolded strip is worth. You would get a better price - and more satisfied customers - if you simply charged the extra money necessary to ship the strip in an oversize envelope or shipping tube, both of which are readily available from multiple sources.

I notice that your new listing says that the item is folded (though you are still using a scan from an unfolded card). If you still have an unfolded strip, please send me that strip and I will return the folded strip to you. I will even pay the return shipping on my item. For that matter, if you have multiple strips and want to make an accommodation involving a bulk purchase, I will make you a reasonable offer.

HIS/HER REPLY:

i never Ignore anyone. ive been writing u all along and making copies about my dealings. first of all the next cards is also folded already ok. next i never falsely adverted to anyone if u look it does say as is. next u had all the rite to write and ask any questions u had about this item. i dont lie about my dealings next yes they were tooken to a auction and we were told by a professional that they are worth much more why are u making this acusation i dont understand its obvious that u are pleased but u still want more.

it sayssssssssss AS IS.I DO NOT DAMAGE GOOD AT ALL.

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Posted By: Scott

You tell them that you are upset about them damaging the item, and they reply that you could have asked questions in advance.

Questions like: "if I win this, do you plan on f*cking it up before you ship it?"

I recently won a photograph that was worth about $100 or so - I paid $30. It was in poor condition. When I received it, it actually had chunks broken off and a few pieces missing - all done when the item was being put into a top-loader. This devalued it by about 1/2. Since it was still a good value, and I suspected I was dealing with Festus from West Virginia, as you are, I didn't say anything - not much point in it. It's obvious from your email exchange that he had no clue what you were talking about. I have also won cards on ebay where the seller wrote notes on the back of the card before shipping to me.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

You had the chance to ask questions, they all say. IMHO, you don't need to ask questions like:

--Will you damage the card intentionally when you ship it?
--Is the Old Judge card you have listed real?
--Are you a crook?