Baseball book market: not dead, but merely resting? Beautiful spalding on ebay

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Posted By: Max Weder

While we've seen a recent decline in baseball book prices, this auction was interesting. A beautiful copy of a relatively common book that is most often found with the fold-outs ripped and taped

http://tinyurl.com/8k4ruf





Ending price of $1525 on ebay.

Max

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Posted By: barrysloate

Max- I've sold a few baseball books lately on ebay and I find the prices to be inconsistent. The ones I sell with condition problems generally do poorly; the better condition ones often outperform. A Spalding at $1525 is way too much, even for a pristine copy.

I recently listed a Baseballogy on BST for $65 and received no inquiries. I moved it to ebay and sold it for $139. What's the explanation- who knows?

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Posted By: Glenn

Barry

As you know, there is no plausible explanation as to how these things go. I listed my Sol White book on ebay and the bidding only went to $800 and I received not a single question. At the same time, I listed a 1912 Red Sox photo display and it only went up to $100. A few years ago, I listed a bound volume of The American Chronicle of Sports and Pastimes and it did not even open at $500.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hi Glenn- $800 for a Sol White book- that seems impossible. You didn't sell it for that, did you?

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Posted By: Glenn

Barry

I was wrong on the Sol White book. The high bid was only $355. No, I certainly did not let it go at that price.

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Posted By: barrysloate

That's bizarre, even for a low grade example.

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Posted By: Glenn

It was a bit of a shock to me. It is the same copy Jerry sold some years ago for well over $20K. And, trust me, my reserve was a long way from that realised final bid.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

What happened to this market? Are the "bookwhales" dying off or leaving the hobby?

Amazing to me that Sol White's book only garners a ~$400 bid on ebay.

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Posted By: Jason Mishelow

I really cannot figure out what is going on with the book market. On this board both me and Barry have tried to sell copies of "Athletic Sports" (1889) for very reasonable prices but got no buyers, then 2 weeks ago a copy in lesser condition went for double what we were asking in the Classic Collectibles Auction. At the same time if you check out ebay there are other high end books out there for reasonable prices that have not moved in months (see copies of Carver's Book of Sports and a 1860 edition of the ball players handbook) It seems like there are just so few of us out there that collect books that so much depends on whether a small number of people happen to see a lisitng and need the book.

Now I just wish that the internet bookseller would lower there prices to reflect actual demand and that these books could start moving a bit.

Finally I just want to note that at the national this summer I only saw one table with an real selection of books.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I know Jason, although I did sell my Athletic Sports for $275 to a friend. I haven't given up on the book market, as a vintage book still holds a special place for me; but the market is very thin and unpredictable. You can still sometimes get a good price, other times strike out.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jason- to add, that Carver Book and Pocket Companion have been sitting on ebay for a long time, and while they are both a little high, the seller is not asking an outrageous price. I have them both, but would I buy them if I didn't? I don't know if I would anymore.

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Posted By: Rob D.

Unless I knew the buyer of an item in an auction, I'd be wary of putting too much stock in a price "realized." This isn't a knock on Classic Collectibles (I like their auctions) or a commentary on whether the book market is topsy-turvy right now (I'm too ignorant to know). But it's impossible for any auction house to guarantee that its items don't get bid up by the consignor -- or more likely a friend or friends of the consignor. So the fact that a lesser-condition copy of a book seemingly sold for an unrealistcally high price in an auction wouldn't give me much pause.

If the market is as depressed as you guys say, I wouldn't be surprised if the consignor "protected" himself by ensuring the book didn't sell for less than he paid for it during a more bullish market.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jason- do you know what the book sold for in the CCA? I didn't see it.

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Posted By: Jason Mishelow

Barry the book went for $770 (!) in the CC auction ending January 8th

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Posted By: barrysloate

I didn't answer Dan's question but I want to address it. Back in the 1990's, which can clearly be considered the golden age of baseball book collecting, there was a well known whale who lived in Seattle who almost single-handedly kept the market going. If he needed it, a record price was guaranteed. But the market was deeper than that, with a lot of mid-range collectors who were pretty active. I remember back then books were just about my number one pursuit, and if I could find a good collection I knew I was going to do well with it.

I will never give up on baseball books completely, and still find good values out there. But it is discouraging how few serious collectors are around. In fact, if I had a rare book for sale I'm not sure who I would call (maybe Max). But I still believe in them as great artifacts, they just aren't as sellable as they once were.

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Posted By: barrysloate

$770 is alot, no doubt. It's a mystery.

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Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus

To build on what Barry has said, IMO vintage baseball publications are arguably the single most undervalued area of the hobby. Should the day ever come that collectors delve into memorabilia with a gusto, they will be astonished to learn of publications with a known population in the single digits that document and often illustrate crucial developments in our national pastime that sell for a small fraction of items with a known population exponentially greater.

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Posted By: Glenn

I recently purchased a complete run of the 1890 Sporting Life for less than $700. Though they are low grade, the woodcuts are fine and the Player's League coverage is outstanding. I would have been willing to pay much more.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Corey, of course I agree.

There is one thing, however, that concerns me. I think we are in the early stages of a monumental cultural shift, that is the printed word is disappearing and heading to the internet. Newspapers and books are certainly seeing the shift. Will that make vintage books more valuable, or will future generations not appreciate them?

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Posted By: Max Weder

An interesting website I only recently became aware of is http://www.librarything.com> . It's somewhat like a combination of wikipedia and flickr. It is easy to upload your library collection and you can search out collectors with similar interests.



I've started to upload my book catalgoue with images of covers. As well, I've also posted some of my images in a set on flickr at

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Posted By: Mr. Moses

to sell my copy - even consigned it once on feeBay. Bit of spotting on the cover but internally nice and clean. I couldn't get to 350.00 either time...... I think it is perceived as being of a greater value than it actually sells for. 1500.00 is quite er ah um strong....

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Posted By: Max Weder

I think that shows that books, like cards, can command a significant premium for condition. Since the Spalding is a common book, it is easy to obtain in relatively decent condition. However, it is hard to find one without defects. Still, I am surprised as well at the price


Max

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Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus

Barry,

All I can say is that the disappearance of the printed world pertains to images as well. If not there yet, we will soon be to the point where no image is not digitally avaible. So assuming the art/baseball card world holds its value in such an environment, then presumably so too should publications. Which assuming that is true takes us back to the question whether the hobby will evolve to truly appreciate publications.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Maybe the baby boomers are the last of an era, and the way antiques are collected in the future will be much different than today. Of course I may not be around to see it.

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Posted By: Jason Mishelow

Following on the comments of Cory and Barry I think that the availablity of internet images of these books should only increase the interest in these books. One of the main probelms is that that average collector is not going to be exposed to these works. Not every one has an OJ card but most semi-experieced collectors know what one looks like. When talking about books there simply is no common experice with their contents. I think that many collecotrs would be amazed with the lithos in Athletic Sports (1889) or the American Boys Book (1864). If more collectors where able to see these works they may be more inclined to purchase a copy. Does anyone think that the recent old judge book will lessen the interst in the cards? Persoanlly I have been toying with the idea of putting together a book with scanned excerpts from old and seldom seen works.

Please excuse spelling above

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Posted By: barrysloate

I love the color lithos in the 1864 book.

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Posted By: keyway

Since you guys are talking books, I have a question. I have a set of the three Spink Sports Stories books. The condition however is not good. All have covers but all have mold or water damage to the bottom of them. Vol 1 is the worst as the bottom of the pages in the first 1/4 of the book are destroyed. However from there on there is damage but not bad. Book 2 is much better with staining to the bottom of most pages. Book 3 has stianing to the cover bottom but most pages are pretty good. These books are great reading as you know. Most of the photos are in good cond. Worth anything? Thanks, Frank

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Posted By: barrysloate

The three volume Spink is a nice series, but not too scarce. A decent set should be worth around $200 (could be less in a soft market), and then you have to deduct quite a bit for the condition problems. So not worth a great deal.

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Posted By: Jimmy

I went to the Boston book show this year, and prices and sales have been up in recent years. It really depends how you look at it, eBay is not the best place to compare prices on vintage books. Really nice piece, from what I can see in the photo

Jimmy

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jimmy- the price for books that rare book dealers bring to conventions is excessive. A good deal of that material sits for a long time. On ebay at least you are certain to sell it.

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Posted By: Max Weder

Barry is correct about book convention pricing, as well as listings on such sites as http://www.abebooks.com

There are books that I have seen at conventions that have been offered for sale for at least 10 years. This is also the same on-line.

Antiquarian book sellers seem to have a very different definition of "just in time" inventory.

Max

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Posted By: scgaynor

In my opinion, the prices of books are going to continue to go down, not up. There may be spikes as one or two new collectors enter the market (actually you really need at least two), but as more and more books become available in e-book format, there is less of a reason to own a hardcopy.

Google wants to copy each page of every book ever printed. That is an impossible task, but it can be done with pretty much every baseball book printed, especially if a copy exists in the Library of Congress. If you can read the book online, there is less interest in owning the original, this goes for all books. People are moving towards having less possessions, not more, and books take up alot of space. The same thing is already happening in the world of collectible Records and CD's. You can take every baseball book ever printed and store it on an external hard drive only a few inches big.

There will always be some collectors who want to hold the book in thier hands and turn the pages, but I think that it will be a shrinking collector class.

I hope for the sake of the hobby that I am wrong.

Scott

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Posted By: barrysloate

Scott- what you said is exactly what I fear too, but collectors still want to own the artifact. Also, not every book is readable. Among the most desirable early books is the Base Ball Players Pocket Companion, but it is not the kind of book you would curl up with near the fireplace on a cold winter day. Sure, most are a good read, but I doubt anyone who has a large baseball library has read every book. I haven't.

What I am concerned about is that a book or publication will be perceived as less important as time passes. It is sad but the world is changing.

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Posted By: leon

One area of "books" that is growing is the Baseball Card Collecting publications from early years. I have been collecting them for a while and many still bring strong prices. I probably haven't gone through 10% of what I own but every time I do I learn more things I didn't know, relating to our baseball cards. It's very interesting reading.....So far I am complete on The Trader Speaks, The Old Judge, and a few others...with parts from many, many others.....Just thought I would throw this tidbit in. It's not ALL downhill........ best regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

I'm still hanging in.

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Posted By: Mike McKee

I agree with Scott's response to a point. But people collect books for various reasons. One is to read obviously and the other is to view the plates in the book.

A book like Bust' em by Ty Cobb has no pictures and a dust jacket that is almost unique. This is the kind of book I agree totally with Scott. There is no allurement there.

The Church book on the other hand is a totally different story. The plates are beautiful and each plate is almost like a large card.

Book collectors have always been in the minority and in hard times the minority just got smaller.

Mike

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Posted By: Max Weder

Rare and unusual books will still command high prices. However, the internet has redefined what is "rare". Putnam editions are now plentiful in all editions, and Spalding and Spink are commonplace.

However, if a first edition of a Pitching in a Pinch appeared in dust jacket (if such exists), there would be a bidding frenzy on ebay to match the strength of the vintage card market.

However, I'm not sure there will be as a high demand for first edition and vintage copies of the ACC, when reprint editions become digitally available. Once the card collectors with a fine sense of appreciation for books (Leon et however many are al) acquire their copies, where will the new collectors come from (as Barry, Corey and Scott have all pointed out)?


I'm still looking, and wishing I could dig up the cash for Sol White, but a kitchen renovation awaits instead this summer (ie several copies' worth of Sol White)

Max

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Posted By: Max Weder

Mike

I am always looking for that unique dust jacket for Busting Em, as well as early fiction.

(And Barry, I am definitely not the one to supplant the Seattle "whale")

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Posted By: barrysloate

That whale was a bit too impulsive, and dealers took advantage of it.

Well, maybe books aren't as popular as one would hope, but threads about books seem to be. This is approaching 40 posts, something we don't often see on this side of the board.

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Posted By: Jimmy

I understand all your thoughts on this issue, and see a price decline with sports collectors in general for this material (books). I think if you look at the other side of this with book dealers or antiques dealers they are just passing the high prices to each other because they do not know as much as we do in our own hobby. We all know more than the average person, and when I walk other shows that do not specialize in sports - prices seem to be high. I agree with you Barry many of these dealers will have these books a long time, but they seem to not care so much. There have been times when I have had discussions with some book dealers about a particular sports book and price. What seems to happen often is the dealer sells himself well, and as I am leaving he or she makes a sale with someone that was listening to our conversation. The same thing happens with antique toys sales as well, you open you month and say wow nice item, and then someone behind you buys it. Just some thoughts

Jimmy

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Posted By: barrysloate

Rare book dealers seem to operate with an enormous markup. While auction houses may make a 15%-20% commission, book dealers are often looking to make a 300% or 500% profit. I don't fully understand it as a business model, unless as you say they have no urgency to sell something.

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Posted By: leon

I agree about the ACC. I have a 1960 reprint and it's fine. I am talking about things like The Card Collectors Bulletin, The Sports Hobbyist etc....the older trade rags. They seem to do well when they are up for sale...Maybe it's just because I collect them?

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Posted By: Max Weder

Mike

Church is indeed one of the most beautiful books around, and I can only imagine what Vol 2 would have looked like. Here's a tragic example when scissors takes advantage of a book.



I have three copies of Church's book. One is a nice copy, signed by George Wright (which I have seemingly posted ad nauseum here), and two beat up copies which I can hopefully marry into one restored copy. (the two are in very bad shape individually)

One is signed by Church, who had a very elegant signature.

Max

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Posted By: CoreyRSh.anus

In regard to market value and where it might be heading, this boils down to a book as a source of information versus a book as an historical relic. For the former, a digital download will suffice. For the latter, the real mccoy will continue to hold value.

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Posted By: DJ

Barry hit it on the head. "Maybe the baby boomers are the last of an era, and the way antiques are collected in the future will be much different than today".

As a book collector, I have noticed the same thing over the last few years as a generation who once found Literature a pleasure to enjoy and collect, they are going by the waste side in favor of collecting other things (or paying bills). This happens and it's tough to believe you can get these people back. I have seen this in many areas of collectibles that were once enjoyed by another generation...like stamps, watches and you can purchase vintage and once prized Hummels for 20% of retail book.

I was consigned a massive collection of books (5000+) a few years back and I was shocked at the low prices that these books (many of them from 1900-1920) brought compared to what the original owner paid for the books individually from 1960 to 1980. With updated technology as far as information goes, it's all there on the Internet.

I wonder how many people purchase "Athletic Sports" or Sol White and actually read the volume all the way through or does it just go into the collection.

DJ

DJ