Vintage Trophy Baseball - need assistance pls

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Posted By: chris

Hi..I won this on Ebay (have rec'd it yet), and have always wanted an old trophy, baseball. This one was reasonably priced. Can anyone help me date it fron the pics? The two teams (Mt. Joy and Lewisburg PA are approx. 90 miles apart), but being a Canadian, I don't know of any historical significance this rivalvy may hold. Help aprreciated.



Mt. Joy versus Lewisburg Pa Vintage Baseball



Very old baseball is signed with Fountain Pen Ink. Mt. Joy Vs. Lewisburg

Aug. 19th .. (Not sure of the year) Umpire W.W. Fisher, Lgb 3, Mt. Joy 0. Light surface wear, but no major issues

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Posted By: barrysloate

Chris- it is unusual that the ball is not dated, because the whole idea of a trophy ball was to have the winning team record the date and score, and then keep the ball as souvenir in the club's trophy case. But judging from the look and style, I would say 1890's. It does seem to be pretty clean and in good shape. Nice pick up.

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Posted By: William

Great pickup.

Looks like it may be dated in the lower portion of the side panel, third photo. Looks like it says Aug. ?? under Lewisburg.

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Posted By: chris

Thanks gents.







Barry...is it the style of ball, patina and fountain pen that helps you arrive on the date? I was hoping for a 19th Century piece, but I wasn't sure from the stitching.







William...you are correct about the date. The seller referenced the Aug 19th inscription but then said they weren't sure of the year. I don't know if the year was worn off, or never added (haven't rec'd the ball yet). Will review and update when it arrives.







thanks again...chris

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Posted By: William

The stitching looks like 1890's, the stitches would be longer and more spaced out in a later ball. It's hard to tell from the photos but it looks like a tight double stitch with white thread, which would also suggest 19th century.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

I can't tell for sure, but the stitches appear to be multicolored which leads me to believe the ball may be early 20th century.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I based my dating very loosely on the way the ball was stitched, but as Dan pointed out it could be post 1900.

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Posted By: Chris

Rec'd the ball today (at the office, so can't add another pic of the date area)...and it looks like the date is '82. The 8 is faint and the 2 is right up agaisnt the stitching, so this could be a 7 etc. The stiching is tight, small and looks to all white in colour. Also has writing on anotehr panel whick reads "3 inn", I beleive? is this consistant with the lenghth of games for this period?



Thanks for the feedback everyone!

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Posted By: davidcycleback

A common question in antiques collecting is "Is this paint or new or old." Judging the age of paint is a concern in areas like antique metal toys, banks and even fishing lures, where collectors desire the original antique paint and fakes and forgers touch up or totally repaint an item. Obviously, the age of the painting is an issue with trophy balls.

Though I have not tested this out myself, paint usually loses black light fluorescence with age and typically gives off no fluorescence under black light. On the other hand, recent paint typically will have some fluorescence-- making touch ups, etc relatively easy to identify. Thus, if the paint on a trophy ball gives of no to almost no fluorescence, that's not proof but is strong evidence the painting is antique and the ball is genuine. Again, I haven't tested this out myself, so I don't know the degrees, variations and exceptions that inevitably exist in practice ("In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is"-- Yogi Berra). But this is a common test used by antiques experts.

Duly note, I'm not suggesting or insinuating the ball isn't genuine-- I'm no expert on trophy balls or 1880 paint-- but thought this a relevant note.

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Posted By: chris

Thanks for your feedback folks!

David, I am unsure if your thoughts about the aging of paint would also apply in theory to ink? I noticed that the pics I posted of the ball have dropped off the listing (I have added them again here), but this ball hasn't got a coat of paint (which I assume is typical of trophy ball?)...just ink writing. Very interesting comments...thanks again! chris

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I would think in general, 19th century paint looks distinctly different than recent paint-- cracking, aging, etc. I recently looked at a repro bubblegum machine and the red paint was obviously brand new-- very clean, smooth and bright. I'm no bubblegum machine historian, but from six feet away I correctly guessed the paint was new.

I believe the blacklight test would be for the overall paint, not the ink writing. I suspect most modern black pen ink doesn't fluoresce.

Also, the same test is used on varnished items, as varnish also loses fluorescence with age. Antique fishing lures were commonly originally varnished, so collectors often put their lures under a blacklight.

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Posted By: William

David, this ball doesn't appear to be painted. The brown color looks to be old leather. It would be common for trophy balls to be painted, however, on this example that doesn't seem to be the case.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Maybe its old leather colored paint. Goes well with the old stitching colored paint.

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Posted By: William

Touche.

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Posted By: Glenn

Chris

That is a great looking ball and I agree with Barry; it appears to be a 19th century ball, based on the stitching. I live in the Lewisburg area and don't know how I missed it. And, before I type any cautionary words, let me stress that the ball looks good and I would have been aggressively bidding had I seen it.

I know of no league or connection between Lewisburg and Mount Joy but Lewisburg is only 65 miles from Harrisburg, which could have been a very likely site for a game, if for no other reason than to cut down on travel distance for the two town teams; as Mt. Joy is approximately 25 miles from Harrisburg.

I did not see your link to ebay, so I don't know where the ball came from. We do have a very aggressive wheeler dealer in this area who would alter his mother's DNA if he could make a few bucks. He has a network of ebay sellers and shill bidders who have been in operation for years and, though, his scams are usually tobacco era cards, he has been known to sell a variety of vintage items on ebay, some good, some bad and has cheated buyers from NJ to CA.

OK, I used this forum to vent about a local (and very successful) scam artist.

Having said that, I do think the ball is good and if you ever want to sell it, please let me know. Have a good day and happy hunting.

Glenn

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Posted By: chris

Thanks for your feedback Glenn.

The seller was from Middleburg,Pennsylvania and had great ffedback and from their current inventory on line, it looks as they normally deal in household retro and antique items, but very few sports antiqueties.

I am pleased to have found this interesting ball and look forward to researching more about the two town teams invloved, if possible. At present, I am not interested in selling, but would appreciate understanding a fair value, both to compare with the price I paid and also for hosuehold insurance purposes. I will post addtional pics tonight, highlighting the unshown panel and a closeup on the date.

Thanks again to everyone for their comments etc. The board is great!

chris

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Posted By: chris

Sorry to delay these...my digital camera has been underperforming of late. The date looks like 1882 or 1888, I believe. Aug 19th, 1882 fell on a Saturday...a ,likely day of the week for a big match, perhaps? Aug 19th, 1888 was a Sunday...unlikely that the game was played on the sabbath...correct?

I contacted the Union County (Lewisburg PA) historical society and asked if they could assist me with a search of newspaper records for the date and they responded after a few days that they cam e up empty. Nothing back from the Mt. Joy historical society. I reached out to a card shop in Lewisburg who kindy gave me the name of a collector/customer of theirs that is attempting some research for me.

Also shown is another panel that reads "3 inn".

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