Do cards exist of Bill Hoy?

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Posted By: Gary B.

Recently I've been reading about an amazing ballplayer named Bill Hoy (often referred to unflatteringly as Dummy Hoy) who was a deaf mute who played in the big leagues from 1888-1902. He got over 2,000 hits, over 1,400 runs and around 600 stolen bases. Not too shabby!

Do any cards of this amazing player exist?

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Posted By: Gary B.

I should have done a search for this name on Net 54 before my initial post, but oh well. So ok, cards of him do exist, but still I would like to know more about him, how many different issues of his cards exist, etc.

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Posted By: bcornell

Hoy OJ image: http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1077517546.

There are a bunch of previous threads about Dummy William.

The Beckett alphabetical index shows N172 as his only set.

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Posted By: Gary B.

I guess my point is, which I should have specified earlier, is that if you want to own a card of Hoy, it's gonna cost you...?

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Posted By: Chris (the illini)

Old Judge cards of Hoy are pretty tough to find, and if you do find one, they will cost quite a bit.

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Posted By: Joe P.

Here you are.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&q=DUMMY+HOY&btnG=Search

http://www.dummyhoy.com/

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Posted By: leon

He was in at least one of the WG series but maybe not while playing....

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

the rest of his deaf friends were), which I will send scans of if you like; He's in the WG1 series, while he was playing, and the Cameo Pepsin pin which Rhett Yeakley has (1895). He played major leage ball from 1887--1903, and lived to be 99 years old. He married a deaf-mute, who was a school teacher. He taught a lot of his teammates to use American Sign Language, and the debate rages hot and heavy whether HE HIMSELF introdued the signs for "ball" and "strike" to the umpire--obviously, sign language on the baseball diamond caught on. He batted .288 lifetime, and stole a lot of bases. He played center field, and could call the left and right fielders off the ball by making his "noise." I say, if it WAS him who introduced the signs to the umpire, he belongs in the Hall; otherwise, close, but no cigar.

Dummy Taylor pitched for the Giants from 1901-1909, and Curtis Pride is still playing ball. Those are the only three deaf-mutes who have cards (there have been others in the Majors,. but not for long).

I know it's hard to imagine WANTING to be called "Dummy,"
but, apparently, he always said "Call me "Dummy" when someone called him Bill. In fact , there's a play called "Call me Dummy."

The writing on the back is by Buck Barker, which would in most auctions have made the card cheaper, but in Lew Lipset's, more expensive. Barker was a great collector who used the back of blank-backed cards to store information about the player pictured on the front.

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Posted By: Gary B.

"I say, if it WAS him who introduced the signs to the umpire, he belongs in the Hall; otherwise, close, but no cigar."

So you're saying his stats weren't quite enough, but if he introduced the signs to the umpire, that pushes him over the top? What about the fact that he played as well as he did as a deaf mute? Wouldn't you think that would also be a big factor in getting him in the hall regardless? His numbers might not have been unbelievable, but they were certainly above average, and he was supposedly a fantastic fielder. Still not enough?

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Posted By: leon

Just because someone has a disadvantage I don't believe they should be given special consideration. They are playing in "open" sports and not "challenged" sports. I also don't think the guy on the PGA tour with a prosthetic should be allowed to drive the course either. Just my opinion. later

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Posted By: jay behrens

Did Casey Martin lose a leg? My biggest bone of contention with the whole Casey Martin deal was that they said walking the course was an integral part of the game. What about carrying your bag? When the case was going on, my Grandmother could have walked a golf course, but strap a bag to her and she'd drop dead before she got to the first green. So I don't buy that bogus argument. If walking is integral, then make the players carry their own bag too. If it was speed golf, where you have to literally run after your ball, then no, he shouldn't get a cart. But once again, that is not the game the PGA plays.

I wrote a similar email to Jim Rome while this going on and it actually got read on air

Jay

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Posted By: jay behrens

Did Casey Martin lose a leg? My biggest bone of contention with the whole Casey Martin deal was that they said walking the course was an integral part of the game. What about carrying your bag? When the case was going on, my Grandmother could have walked a golf course, but strap a bag to her and she'd drop dead before she got to the first green. So I don't buy that bogus argument. If walking is integral, then make the players carry their own bag too. If it was speed golf, where you have to literally run after your ball, then no, he shouldn't get a cart. But once again, that is not the game the PGA plays.

I wrote a similar email to Jim Rome while this going on and it actually got read on air

Jay

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Posted By: Bob Lemke

You can also find the feisty little feller in the 1888 WG1 and 1889 E.R. Williams baseball game cards, on an 1898 Cameo Pepsin pin and in the 1898-99 National Copper Plate Co. portraits (similar to M101-1, in which he does NOT appear).

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Posted By: Julie

don't know how I forgot the E.R. Williams--since I have (1) E.R. Williams. Never heard of the copper plate, though.

I said what i said very casually, but I've thought long and hard about it. Hoy himself said his being deaf was a HELP to him--he wasn't always being distracted by the raucus crowd or players yelling. Once he came to an agreement with a third base coach to flash him a sign for balls and strikes,--his second year--his average went way up. I think he played very, very good ball. But I don't think he belongs in the Hall JUST because he was deaf. However, I think it VERY LIKELY that he did, personally, introduce the hand signals--and in my mind, that qualifies him for the Hall of Fame, together with his very nifty numbers. When you stop to think about it, introducing those hand signals is integrally bound up WITH his being deaf, so I guess you could say that yes, his handicap should give him a boost.

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Posted By: petecld

Were of the hand signals created BY him or were hand signals created BECAUSE of him?

Either way, I'm thinking like Leon (warning) on this one, the only consideration for the hall should be his playing accomplishments.

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Posted By: Gary B.

I think playing with his handicap should be taken into consideration - that's a major factor to overcome playing the game as successfully as he did.

But hey, I think Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be voted into the hall of fame immediately, so what the f**k do I know?

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Posted By: Julie

invented the batting helmet should be in the Hall--till I found out he waited 20 years after the killing to do it!

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Posted By: Gary B.

Ok, how about if he was blind instead of deaf? I would think even if someone was a somewhat lesser player than Hoy and was blind, they should be an automatic in the hall...

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...hmm...ballbeeps. My blind client goes to As games fairly often. She takes the radio. It must be sort of neat, if you're blind, because although you've never seen anything, you have a sense of space, speed, roundness, impact--all sorts of things. hey, it's hard enough hitting the ball if you CAN see it!

ANYWAY, Hoy said it HELPED him, being deaf!

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Posted By: Gary B.

While it may have helped him (and if he said so, he would know), still it's an amazing accomplishment considering he's only one of 3 ever to make it to the big leagues, and as it seems, the best of the 3. It's just a handicap that few who had it, one would imagine, would pursue something so audacious as making it into the big leagues. Whether it helped him or not (and honestly, how could he even know that for sure, having no basis for comparison), still it's extremely impressive. Oh, Cooperstown....

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

favor. I think it's possible, as a deaf person, to observe how other people are being distracted by sound (that you cannot hear)--but you may have a point--perhaps he couldn't know it helped him. But: it's not that he was known as a great outfielder (defensive skills)--he was best known for his batting and his speed on the bases (I purposely didn't include his number of stolen bases, because for part of his playing career, that number includers extra bases taken on a hit or someone else's hit--but over 600 bases stolen, or added to the expected, indicates excellent speed and good baserunning judgement).

What intrigues me most about Hoy is that he taught teammates. whenever possible, sign language--to use bits of during the game, to fool the opposing team, and thos probably also introduced the sign language into the unpire's repetoire himself. I think that's real baseball smarts, and Lord knows where we'd be today without hand signals in baseball, with the size of the crowd, indoor stadiums, etc!

Hey, I won't be disappointed if he's voted into the Hall! I think there're plenty of less deserving people in already.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Does this mean we let Jom Abbott in the Hall because he had only one hand? Regardless of physical handicaps or abilities, you should only get in if your play warrants it.

I don't have a problem with him going in as a pioneer, but not as a players. I believe Candy Cummings is in the HOF as a pioneer and not a player.

Jay

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Posted By: Gary B.

Well, if Jim Abbott had one hand and had over 2,000 hits, over 1,400 runs and around 600 stolen bases like Hoy did, I might think him worthy too, but Jim Abbott was a pitcher with an 87-108 record, a 4.25 era and 888 strikeouts - big difference. Sure, he went 18-11 one year, but the year before that he went 10-14, and the year after he went 7-15. One year he even went 2-18!

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

some Hoy stuff in the HOF and make notice of the fact that he was instrumental in changing the game, just like having notes about Maris' 61* or notes about Larsen's perfect WS game or Vander Meer's back to back no hitters, but none of those people, Hoy included, need to be enshrined in the HOF.

We've debated ad naseum about some of the people who are already in there who shouldn't be and the bar is being reduced daily with the current home run derby to where 500 is going to be pretty common. 3000 hits will still be difficult as will 300 wins but 500 hrs is becoming WAY more attainable.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Tom:

I'm a big fan of Dummy Hoy (and, by the way, I might have won that Old Judge card that Julie flaunted above had she not overpaid for it! ), but I have to agree that his stats alone do not warrant enshrinement.

Wouldn't you agree, however, that if it was deemed that he was responsible for the establishment of umpire hand signals, that contribition would be sufficient enough to suggest he might be enshrined as a pioneer much like my long lost cousin Candy Cummings was for his "invention" of the curve ball?

Kevin

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Posted By: Julie

What you're saying, since Cummings is in the HOF as a pioneer, not a player, is that Hoy should be in the Hall, just in a different category...I think. O.K. by me. But he did play awfully well.

I'm waiting for my "July 13th" objects to expire, and THEN, I'm going to post Rhett Yeakley's Cameo Pepsin pin of Hoy, if he doesn't beat me to it. (I always run out of room in my available files for posting--for some obscure reason...)


Er--second posting. Did Rhett object? I gave him credit.


Rhett's Cameo Pepsin pin from the late '90s. Hoy looks a lot more mature than on the Old Judges. PLEASE DO NOT ZAP THIS POST UNLESS RHETT TELLS YOU TO!

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Posted By: Julie

One-of-a-kind (or nearly so) items don't get much exposure on the Forum.

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Posted By: Matthew S. Moore

Hello, folks. Thanks to Joe P. for providing the URL to the 'Dummy" Hoy Homeplate, the official Website of the Hoy Committee, a nonprofit grassroots group, and to Julie Vognar for sharing her info.

The Hoy Committee endeavors to educate the general public about the achievements of Hoy and other pioneering deaf athletes. One of our goals is getting Hoy into the National Baseball Hall of Fame. Not BECAUSE he was deaf or disabled, but because he was a fine player who, we believe, was responsible for introducing sign language and fingerspelling into major-league baseball, and who has never been given proper official credit for it. We are still scouting for more hard contemporary evidence that he explicitly taught the umpires the now-familiar signals. But there is plenty of hard evidence that he taught his base coaches and teammates how to signal and fingerspell to him. We do NOT believe that Bill Klem invented the signals, as his HOF plaque claims.

I am now working thick and fast on the first full-scale biography of Hoy, and it's really a community effort. So many people have helped me--members of Hoy's family, librarians, archivists, SABRists, collectors, and fans. I am still scouting for more photos, high-quality images of cards, mementos, artifacts, holograph letters, etc. I don't yet own any cards, by the way. But I do want to reproduce the five Old Judge N172s that Hoy posed for. To the best of my knowledge, this would be the first time they've been reproduced togeher...outside of pricelists.

Hoy appeared in the Old Judge N172s during his rookie year with the Washington Senators (1888). He was included in the mysterious 1888 polychrome set of WG1 Baseball Playing Cards. Until a few days ago, I had no idea that he was also depicted on a Cameo Pepsin Gum pin! (Thanks, Julie...and please get in touch with me, Rhett!) According to Beckett, those were the only cards he appeared in. To devoted Hoy collectors, the five N172s are our T206 Wagners!

I don't have a complete set of photo-prints of Hoy's team shots, and there are some photos I have photocopies of, but need "real" prints...such as the 1927 Adult Deaf Welfare Society baseball-team shot (Cincinnati?) that includes Hoy as a coach. I've acquired some good images..but always want more.

Feel free to contact me if you have a lead, tip, suggestion, or question.

www.dummyhoy.com

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Posted By: Matthew S. Moore

Do you have the originals of these cards and collectibles? One of the participants in this forum has already shared Hoy's Cameo Pepsin pin image with me (thanks to the marvels of digital technology), and I trust that we'll be able to use it for the book I'm working on (the first full-scale biography of William Ellsworth "Dummy" Hoy). I also have access to digital images of all five of Hoy's N172s. (With thanks to the folks in this forum.) But I'm scouting for a high-quality photo/transparency or high-resolution TIFF or EPS image of Hoy's WG1 card. Until a few moments ago, I had no notion of the 1889 game card you mention. Can you help? All assistance is deeply appreciated and will be properly credited. (We plan to print chromo-lithographs in full-color images.)

I take it that you're THE Mr. Lemke?

Matthew S. Moore
President, MSM Productions, Ltd.

www.dummyhoy.com

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Posted By: Julie

from Terry Knouse, Jr. at the national, not the wrong guy.

Hey, you KNOW him--it's Steve Sandy. he MAY be the deaf guy who bought the WG1 Hoy from Tik (Terry Knouse, Jr.) at the National, for $700 (what a steal!). otherwise, ask around. Someone in the deaf community has just acquired a new WG1 Hoy.

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Posted By: Matthew S. Moore

Thanks, Julie...as always! If Steve Sandy has that card, he hasn't volunteered the info to me. I'm trying to round up what I can on my own.

Anyone here have one? (It never hurts to ask!)

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Posted By: Julie

.....if it IS Steve, he just got it at the National--have you taked to him since then? I thought, since he was so close to Cleveland, it might be him.

I just asked Terry Knouse about a month ago, and he said his son Terry Jr. sold a WG1 Hoy (A PSA--9? Something like that)to a deaf guy, who handed him a note asking for the price of it, at the National. I meant to write Steve and ask if it was him, but I don't have his e-mail address anymore--very strange, since nobody empties my e-mail address book.

No only did Terry, Jr. not think he was selling it cheap at $700, but Terry himself nearly fainted when I told him what near mint Hoy Old Judges listed at.

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Posted By: Parpar

Julie...and fellow VBC posters...thanks for your suggestions, leads, and tips.

As you know, I'm scouting for high-quality, reproducible images for the Hoy biography I'm working on. I still don't have access to a clean version of the Old Judge card showing Hoy standing and catching a fly ball (full face, looking and reaching up towards ball suspended from string). The only photo I have is from the archives of "Sporting News," and Hoy's figure has been outlined in India ink. I also tried test-printing some of the scans you sent me, but they didn't come out well. I get best results with .TIFF and .EP, not .JPG. Everyone who helps with the book is getting credited in the "Acknowledgements" page(s). (That roster, I'm happy to say, is steadily increasing.) Andy, thanks for your input---what's your last name?

As you may know, the American Memory department of the Library of Congress (www.memory.loc.gov) has a fabulous collection of vintage baseball cards, the Benjamin K. Edwards Collection, and it's posted online in full color. Visitors to the LOC Website can browse through or search the cards by player's name, team, league, or series. The card backs, whenever they have any captions or logos, are posted too.

A couple of dealers are selling a CD-ROM that evidently encompasses most of this collection: "Old Baseball Card Photographs 1887-1914." The information included with the two dealers' posts is identical. One's selling it for $6.95 with $3.50 S&H, the other for $9.95, S&H included. Have you seen the CD? Is this legit? Can you make any judgments on the quality of the images? And would there be a copyright problem if I used any of the CD-ROM's images for my book? (Assuming that this is feasible.) The cards are in the public domain, but LOC charge for reproductions made of items in its collections. Since I'd like to imclude cards showing Hoy's teammates on the Washington Senators, and others, such as the St. Louis Browns and Cincinnati Reds, who are depicted in the N172 and other series, this would be a costly proposition if I order, say, transparencies from the LOC. Any advice?

Thanks to sites like the VBC Forum, I'm augmenting my knowledge about authentic and fake cards, and being cautious of online dealers' claims. I can't claim to be a maven, but I'm aware that there are plenty of scams and flim-flam in this business, and so it's always good to be able to ask the experts.

The book progresses daily.