Unbreakable Records?

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Posted By: Gary B.

I have this baseball book from the mid-70's that talks about all these different records it states will never be broken. Funny thing is, most of those have been broken since, some of them up to 3 or 4 times.

There are certain records people said will NEVER be broken - Ty Cobb's hits, Lou Brock's stolen bases, etc., but many of these have already been destroyed.

As far as I can guage, the only records that CAN'T be broken, are ones where the game has changed to prevent it from happening again. The most obvious example is Cy Young. For someone to break his wins totals, they'd have to average over 25 wins per season for 20 straight seasons. With the amount of pitching time pitchers receive these days, it's just an impossibility - it will NEVER happen barring moving back to a 4-man rotation. Same goes for Jack Chesbro's single season wins - it's just NOT gonna happen. Even winning 30 these days is a minor miracle.

Other records seem as impressive and unbreakable, but are they really? Ty Cobb's lifetime average, Rickey Henderson's lifetime stolen bases, Nolan Ryan's lifetime strikeouts - these seem pretty far out of reach, but it's possible, given the right superhuman player coming along at the right time. 73 home runs would have seemed like dreamland 10 years ago, but now that 70's been reached twice, it's easy to imagine it happening again. No one's reached George Sisler's single-season hits or Hack Wilson's single-season rbi's, but people have flirted with it - it COULD happen. How about Dimaggio's 56 - impossible? How about Hornsby's single-season average? Too far out of reach? No one's even hit .400 for over 50 years, but will it never happen again?

Are there any other records besides the single-season and lifetime wins you think are completely unobtainable?

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

Ryan's 5714 K's is pretty solid.........I don't think that anyone will have the longevity (sp?) to be able to break that record. To average 300K's a year would take nearly 20 years to knock it down. Just don't see that happening with the advent of middle relief and closers. I don't know what the average starter's are pitching today but can't believe it's much over 5-6 innings (on average). Just can't see anyone posting the numbers with 5 man rotations. Maybe another physical oddity (such as Ryan) will come along that will have the arm strength to go for 20+ years with the speed to do it but I think it's a 'safe' record.

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Posted By: Chris

I think Henderson's SB record is the safest IMO. Ryan and Rose's recors are safe as well Call me crazy, but for some reason I think someone will someday hit in more than 56 straight. I'll throw one more at you. Will anybody ever beat the Braves 12 and currently still intact division championships in a row? What about Rickey's HR's to lead off a game? I'm not sure what the number is but it is some crazy #.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Almost all single season records are vulnerable in the hitting catagory. Some that are untouchable, Owen Wilson's 36 triples and the single season BA. There would be way too much media pressure for somene to seriously chase it. I'm tempted to say Lee Smith's career saves, but I still think it's vulernable somewhere down the line.

Some untouchables:

Career triples
Fewest Ks by a batter in a season
Nuxhall's consecutive no-hitters
Ryan's career no-hitters
Bonds career MVPs
Hershiser's consecutive scoreless streak, maybe

This is off the top of ym head. I'll have to look at the record book when I get back home from work

Jay

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

not Joe Nuxhall..........

Still a red though..........
Both popular at that.........

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I think you can add Williams career OBP of .481 to the safe list.

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Posted By: Mike

Pitcher Jack Taylor's 39 straight complete games in 1904 for the Cardinals seems unbreakable.

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Posted By: jay behrens

It's a given that the old-time pitching records are untouchable.

Ruth's career SLG% is probably safe as are most of the walk records that Bonds is setting. Speaker's Doubles record is probably safe too. Henderson's SB and lead off HR records should be safe too. The Giants 23 game winning streak, Elroy Face winning 18 consecutive games in relief in one season, Gagne's consecutive saves, Yankees WS wins and titles, Twins consecutive wins at home in the WS, Twins consecutive loses on the road in the WS, Yogi Berra's WS games played and slew of other WS records set by Yankees in that streatch from 1947-64.

Jay

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Posted By: Paul

Joe Nuxhall may not have thrown consecutive no hitters. But he did pitch in the majors when he was 15 years old. I don't see anyone breaking that record. Satchel Paige's record of pitching at age 59 also seems safe. If anyone tried to break that record, the Commissioner's office would probably stop it, as they did with Minnie Minoso.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I agree, DiMaggio's 56 game hitting streak somehow does seem breakable. And Hornsby's single season record BA? I just don't know about that one. Certainly his .400+ average for five consecutive seasons is awesome, but Lajoie batted higher than Hornsby ever did in the 20th century, and a handful of others did as well before that.

Hornsby's 13 hits in two consecutive games and 27 hits in a week are streaks that will be difficult to surpass, but other more obscure records such as Joyce's four triples in a game, Tatis' two grand slams in an inning, Crawford's lifetime 50+ inside the park HRs, speedster Triandos' consecutive games without getting caught stealing, and lots of others are unlikely to be broken.

But I still like Bill Bergen's lifetime .201 slugging percentage. Way lower than anyones BA for players with 3000+ plate appearances.

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Posted By: Kevin Cummings

I think there are some negative records that will never be broken - some because of, as Jay said, changes in the game, but others primarily because players wouldn't be allowed to be around long enough to come close to breaking them:

Reggie Jackson's 2597 career strikeouts
John Coleman's 48 single-season pitching losses
John Coleman's 291 single-season earned runs allowed
Bill Stemmeyer's 63 single-season wild pitches

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Posted By: rich

Pete Rose hits record. I can't see that coming down. it would take over 20 years of 200 hits, and even in the age of DH, (edgar martinez for instance does not even have 3000) I think 4,192 is pretty safe.

What about Anthony Young's 27 consecutive losses streak. Granted that was over 2 years, but I think that is also pretty safe as well. With pitching so watered down these days, even Mike Maroth last year who lost 20, won a few 10-8 games because of hitting.

Off the top of my head I think that is probably it right now. with the addition of maybe Vince Coleman's 130 steals in a season as well.

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Posted By: Rich Klein

Just Join Sabr:

I believe the latest publication we got from them included a nice story on "unbreakable" records along with a couple pages of records put into numerical order.

Trust me, the few $$$ you spend on SABR will help all of you greatly.

Rich

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Posted By: jay behrens

Another obscure record I just remembered, Frank Howard's 10 homers in 7 days. Even in this day of cheap HRs, I think only one person has managed as much as 8 HRs in 7 days making what Howard did even that much more impressive.

Jay

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Posted By: Gary B.

I still maintain that a lot of these records are beatable for 2 main reasons:

1. Someone did it once
2. There are too many previously "unbeatable" records that have been broken again and again. This can't be stressed enough. Who on earth thought someone could beat Cobb's hit record, or McGwire's home run record (not to mention Ruth when he had it or Maris when he had it), or Brock's stolen base record (not to mention Cobb when he had it) or Ruth's walks record (single season and career) or slugging percentage (single season) or William's single-season on-base percentage record, etc., etc.? These were UNBEATABLE records that have fallen by the wayside.

The major exception again being ones that are impossible due to changes in the game like wins, complete games, etc. - these pitching records are untouchable. They're so untouchable that maybe new categories should be created. Most wins in a 5-man pitching rotation, most complete games since the advent and prevelance of relief pitching, etc. After all, most of the records we consider records are in the "modern era," and the stats from the 19th century in these incidents aren't counted, at least not by most - it depends on what lists you look on.

I agree that the Ryan one would be REALLY tough with the advent of the middle relief and closers. That would be especially difficult in this day and age, however some of the ones mentioned are breakable:

Pete Rose's 4,256
Rickey Henderson's 1406
Rickey Henderson's 130
even Williams' on-base percentage and the triples records.

I'm not saying it would be easy for these to be beaten, or that it's even likely, but if someone did it before, and the game hasn't changed to the extent that it's no longer physically possible, then I say it could happen. Even a record like Henderson's where it seems ridiculously out of reach (average of 70 stolen bases over 20 years!) - well, he did it, so whose to say another like him couldn't appear one day? Bonds single season walks after he's done this season? Unlikely, but possible. Just get another person with incredible discipline that has such respect that people rarely pitch to him, and it could happen. Gange's consecutive saves? This didn't happen in another era where the rules have changed. The streak ended just like a week ago.

I would say there are really realtively few unbreakable records.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Rose's record is unbreakable, but it's actually 4256, to be precise. I don't think Bond's 73 HR's will be broken. The game has shifted again and even 50 HR's is getting tough. I think that if the recent HR records were steroid induced, then those records will not be approached with the probability that players will stop taking them. Bonds will also walk 200-220 times this year, I think you can chalk that one up as unbreakable too. I've always thought DiMaggio's 56 could be topped, but it just doesn't happen. And I think Ryan's 5714 is unbreakable and likewise one of the most impressive of the modern records. And what about Bond's single season .862 slugging average? Ruth's .847 seemed absolutely inconceivable and yet Bonds broke it. That seems to me the one record that was most untouchable yet actually was reached. And Wilson's 36 triples just reflects a change in the game. Interestingly, the next highest total is 26 (Joe Jackson) and I can't think of another record where the disparity betweeen one and two is so great.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I posted the last entry but forgot to type in my name. Did not intend to be anonymous.Sorry

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Posted By: jay behrens

your name was anonymous but not your email.

Unless a few parks are designed that are condusive to triples, we never see anyone approach Wilson or Crawford triples records.

I still think Henderson's career record is safe. We saw some of the greatest base stealers of all-time in the 80s (Raines, Coleman, etc), and none of them could keep up with Henderson. By the way, Coleman holds the single season record with 130. It's possible that someone might beat this, but until stealing moves to the forefront again, it will not be approached any time soon.

Jay

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Posted By: barrysloate

Vince Coleman's season high was 110. Rickey Henderson holds the record with 130. Either way, the game has changed and that record seems safe forever.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Jay,

I can't tell if you joking or not. If so, it's pretty dry. I mean, you know that Henderson does hold the single season record with 130 stolen bases, right? Not Coleman.

Vince Coleman peaked as a rookie with 110.

-Ryan

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Posted By: jay behrens

Not sure what I was thinking. It's too easy to check the numbers on line and I didn't. Oh well, Lee missed out on a chance to possibly win a bet on baseball from me, hehe. And I have been know to have a very deadpan and dry sense of humor.

Jay

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Posted By: Gary B.

thanks for correcting me with 4,256 - i edited my post - i had been thinking of cobb's numbers - still hard to conceive of two people getting over 4,000 hits, when 3,000 is such a huge milestone...

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Posted By: Mark

"Lajoie batted higher than Hornsby ever did in the 20th century, and a handful of others did as well before that."

I would suggest that it is uncertain who holds the major league baseball single-season batting average record, at least if you count the American Association. According to www.baseball-almanac.com, James "Tip" O'Neill hit .485 in 1887 (275/567), which would make him the record holder. However, according to www.baseball-reference.com, O'Neill batted .435 in 1887 (225/517), which is less than others.

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Posted By: Andrew

Yaz and Brooks Robinson's 23 consecutive seasons with one team. Different era, where $s hinder player loyalty to one team.

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Posted By: Elliot

The difference between baseball almanac and baseball reference is because baseball almanac counts walks as hits as they did in 1887 (one year only) wheresas baseball reference has changed the numbers for conformity.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

....

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Posted By: jay behrens

Baseball-reference needs to change their numbers since MLB said that all records are based on the rules at the time of play, rather than trying to readjust numbers based on prevailing rules.

Jay

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Posted By: JimB

I can't believe nobody has mentioned CY YOUNG's 511 victories. 25 seasons of 25+ wins. It won't ever happen. I would bet my life on that one.
Jim

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Posted By: Big Spider Beck

Triandos. Speedster?

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Posted By: Gary B.

Cy Young is in the initial post. It's a given that that's an impossible one to beat - the game has changed to prevent it.

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Posted By: Paul M

1.Walter Johnson's 110 career shutouts
2.Big Ed Walsh's career ERA 1.82
3.Greg Maddux's 16 consecutive 15-win seasons

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Posted By: jay behrens

Maddux's record is gonna be tough to beat, but it's not something that is totally out of the question. It will require exactly the same conditions that MAddux had, a great pitcher on a team taht is able to maintain it's winning was for the the majority of his career.

Jay

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Posted By: Mike (18colt)

Didn't Hugh Duffy hit .438 in the 1880s or 1890s? That might be hard to beat.

Also - when will we ever see another Triple Crown winner (hitting, not pitching or horse racing)?

Here's a thought -- single season stolen base record of 130 could maybe be threatened in the next few seasons if Scott Podsednik (spelling?) of the Brewers hits .300 instead of .260. If he's on base more, he can run more. At the very least, 80-100 SB isn't out of the question, and then maybe if the Brewers are out of contention and he gets a continual green light . . . .

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Posted By: jay behrens

Actually, Duffy is no longer recognized as having the highest BA. I believe it's Tip O'Niel that is now credited with .458 BA, but this is only because that season BB were counted as an AB and a hit that season. Memory fails me as to what season this was.

Jay

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Posted By: Jason Smith

I saw that a few people mentioned the Triples marks as unattainable. "Chief" Owen Wilson was the 2nd T206 card I ever bought, solely based on the fact that I love the Triple, and that he holds the record for Triples in a season, with 36 in 1912 - Unbreakable! That was a lot more than anybody, even at the time, and because he played at Forbes Field. I read that he also had 31 inside the park homers over the course of his pretty short career.
Jason

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Posted By: warshawlaw

averaging over 400 for 5 seasons. No one today can hit .400 for one season.

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Posted By: jay behrens

That is one of the things that always impressed me about Hornsby along with his 1922 season hitting 42 HR while batting over .400 along with 17 SB and 150 RBI. Arguably the single greatest season ever put out by a player. You can make a strong argument for Cobb's 1911 season.

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Posted By: shoo

Where should i start, how about a 12 time batting titles , nine of them in a row,batted over 300 23 out of 24 years,23 consecutive, a lifetime batting average of .367. Just awesome. no doubt a argument can be mad for a few other records like cy youngs win total and walter johnson shutout mark, but I think roses record of hits will go down one day. The right player stays healthy for 20 plus seasons it will happen. P.S. if Bonds breaks Aaron homerun mark it wont last long, say another 10 years. Arod is already half way there.

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Posted By: Scott M

Mike brought up pitcher Jack Taylor earlier in this thread but only gave his record for complete games in a season.

I just started reading "The Black Prince of Baseball" about Hal Chase and the book mentions that Taylor holds the record for 188 consecutive complete games between June 20, 1901 and August 9, 1906....

Talk about a record that will never, ever be approached again!

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Posted By: Gary B.

Has anyone noticed what record Ichiro Suzuki is threatening this year?

It seems like every few years someone flirts with breaking George Sisler's 257 hits in a single season record. Even Ichiro's flirted with it before, but check this out:

After 123 games played by the Mariners, Ichiro has hit 199 hits. That means he's averaging about 1.623 hits per game. With 39 games left, at that rate, he'd hit 63.6 more hits, giving him 262 or 263.

I know keeping up that kind of average won't be easy, but it is late enough in the season where it's far from inconceivable. Naturally, he'll have to keep up this pace for a little while longer before the record becomes seriously threatened, since every time it looked like someone would beat it before, it never happened, but could this be the year? If anyone currently playing today could possibly beat this 84-year old record, it's Ichiro. He'll never hit the .407 average Sisler did that year, but he is a lead-off hitter who has been remarkably consistent. He'll be the only player ever to get 200 or more hits in each of their first 4 seasons in the major leagues.

His team this year has the 2nd worst record in the AL, yet he's 20 points ahead of anyone else in average. Ichiro has only missed 1 game this season, and he's consistently played almost every game of the season (159 last year), so barring major injury, he'll be playing likely every remaining game this year.

Since his team is doing so badly, and this is his fourth year, he's not in the spotlight close to the level he's been in the past. How long before the baseball world takes notice of this and starts paying really close attention? I know I'll be watching every day now to see what he does....

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Posted By: jay behrens

Lots of discussion of this on the SABR groups. As was pointed out there, Sisler's record is like Ruth's 60 HRs, it's easy enough to be ahead of the pace coming into the last 6 week of the season, but Sisler averaged over 1.8 hits a game over the last 6 weeks of the season. It will certainly be interesting to see if Ichiro can keep up the pace. Unlike the HR record, I think this is even more sensative to the number of games played. 8 extra games is huge when you are hitting at this level.

Jay

I like to sit outside, drink beer and yell at people. If I did this at home I would be arrested, so I go to baseball games and fit right in.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Gary,

No harm in resurrecting a good thread - and I like this one. Part of me doesn't want Ichiro to break the record, because after agonizing way to much over the purchase, I just selected and obtained the Sisler card which I commemorate his 257 with. But another part of me is with Ichiro. We need more talent like him in baseball.

And here is my newest "unbeatable" statistic: Most inside-the-park-homeruns, career: 51, Sam Crawford (of triples fame). I guess Cobb got on base and it was Crawford's job to drive him in, before he stole home.

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Posted By: josh behrens

I believe that Henderson's SB Record is the safest, followed by Ryan's record for.... well... name one. I dont think Henderson's Lead Off Home Record will stand long if Soriano stays at lead off for the Rangers. I know they throw him back and forth in the line up, but lead off is his home.

P.S.
The Name is Josh... Not to be confused with Jay.

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Posted By: Kevin O

Seeing Reggie Jackson's 2597 strikeouts as an unbeatable record reminded me of a good Mickey story. When Jackson hit his 537th homer, reporters asked Mantle how he felt about Reggie passing him on the all-time list. "He passed me on the strikeout list six years ago. Why didn't you @#$&*s ask me how I felt about that?"

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Posted By: Anonymous

What about Connie Mack's record of over fifty years as manager?