Alright studs of knowledge, what's this???

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Posted By: Tim S.

What is this Wagner card from in lot #1037 of Mastro? A cut-out possibly?

1910's E Anonymous: Hans Wagner, blank-backed w/dark blue background (GD)

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Posted By: Julie

a cutout? NO WAY!

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Posted By: Raymond

These are 1910 E98 cards. Wagner has a card in the set. Looks like they come with different color backgrounds.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/auctions/ebay/272768.html

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Posted By: brian p

This "card" is definitely not an E98--I have never seen any Wagner card with this batting pose before. It almost looks like one of those very realistic fantasy creations that an ebay seller was offering a few months back.

Brian

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Posted By: Tim S.

I received a scan of the card (f/b) from Mastro and it is no e98, that is for sure. The size is 271kb and not sure if I can post a scan that size on here.

Tim

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Posted By: bcornell

Ya got me on this one... maybe an E999?

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Posted By: dan mckee

I am with Brian P. looks like a NEWLY created piece of junk.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Is it just me, or is there something weird about that font? I can't say for sure, but when you see enough vintage paper items, you tend to notice certain little things that don't seem to match the time period. I don't think I've ever seen a font from that time period that looked like that.

When I say "like that" I couldn't even begin to describe why it doesn't look right to me. It just seems...off. Hard to explain.

I guess the real question is, what does the card smell like?

-Ryan

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Posted By: jay behrens

it certainly has a look unlike anything else from that era.

Jay

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Posted By: leon

This is one of those I would like to see in person. So far I have not been fooled, in the last few years, by a fake. The scan makes the back look a little white? hmmm.......

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Posted By: petecld

Here's a resized image of what Tim S. sent me.



The style of type is odd but does kinda have the feel of the style of the E90-2 and E104 sets. The spelling of Pittsburgh is accurate for the periodand by that I mean it is missing the "h".

Could be a test card of some kind but that is pure SPECULATION.

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Posted By: Wesley

There is apparently an orange Bill Carigan from the same set. Someone should ask for a scan of the front and back of that card as well.

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Posted By: Harry

It was also blank backed, had bright colors and the same font. I do not remember who the card pictured. The owner (Ron Vidro?) did not know what it was. I went back later in the show to look at it again and he said that he had sold it to another dealer.

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Posted By: Paul

I find it odd that the caption extends left to right beyond the picture. I've never seen a card like that. The period at the end of "Pittsburg" is also unusual, as is the full spelling of the city's name. I'm with the rest of you, it doesn't look right.

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Posted By: BCD

As the recently (1999 or so ) doscpvered NODGRASS cards. The font work is the giveaway.

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Posted By: Tim S.

I believe this card comes from the Egan collection (correct me if I am wrong), so I would believe it to be authentic.

Tim

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Posted By: Gary B.

This card is actually Barbara Streisand's 1977 album "Superman" VERY cleverly disguised to look like a vintage Honus Wagner card.

I don't know about any of you, but I for one will sleep much more soundly tonight knowing that this mystery has been solved. Phew!

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Posted By: Dennis

Hi gang. I've just recently began posting here after lurking for many months. I hope I can help others just a fraction as much as this board has helped me. I'm certainly no expert but I do have some knowledge of paper/cardboard characteristics. My passion is for the t205s. They are truly works of art. I, also, think you'll find that I'm pretty outspoken.

Now for the subject at hand. The card is a fake. It's a pretty shoddy fake at that.

First of all look closely at the lower half of the card. Beginning at Wagner's hands and stretching across the card horizontially - the background color is green. This is where I believe the card was cropped from another (unidentified) image using an image editor.

Second, the image of Honus is placed in the lower half of the card leaving 50% of the card blue. Colored ink was not cheap back then (still isn't), why spend money printing a mostly blue card? This holds true for the text as well. The font is off and too large. It's also blue. Most (obviously not all) cards of this era use a different smaller font and black ink (cheaper).

Third, look closely at the corners where they have been artificially aged. You can see the paper fibers look like hair where the corners were pulled off.

Lastly, it's almost perfectly centered. Most fakes are centered near perfect. Off-centered fakes don't bring the $. The borders are too white.

I could go on and on about this "card". Hope this helps.

Dennis
ALWAYS looking for t205 minor leaguers

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Posted By: leon

Hey Folks,
All good thoughts on this card so far. Here's some more to think about though. First off on Sunday morning Ron Vitro told me there was no way he was selling his unidentified caramel type card. I got down on my hands and knees, offered all the money (sort of), and he just didn't want to sell it. I did buy 2 more things from him at about 11am on Sunday as I was walking out for the day...at that time there was no way he was selling and still had it. I doubt he sold it after what he told me. I could be wrong but I would be a little surprised though. BTW, his card was similar to the ones in the Mastro auction but definitely different. I scrutinized Ron's card pretty closely and would say that it was authentic. I didn't do any forensic tests but it looked good to me. Now to the Mastro uncatalogued caramel type cards. I think there will be some more checking to see how long Mr. Egan had it. If he got it in the '70's, as he did a lot of his collection, then computer blah blah is probably out of the question. It would have been too expensive and there would have been no motive. ALSO, I have at least (1) D303 card that has a solid background color that is 2 distinct shades. The card I have is different but it is authentic and in an SGC holder. As for the fibers and the rest of this blue card I feel it would need to be seen in person to make any more hypothesis. Just some rambling thoughts.......jury still out for me.....

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Posted By: hankron

An in person examination, in particular a microsocopic examination of the printing/ink, would more than likely determine the card's authenticity/age.

The card is unusual, but that doesn't mean it's a fake. My most used phrase is "I'd have to see it in person" (second is "Where the f*** are my keys?"), but I think the folks at MastroNet are sharp.

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Posted By: Wesley

Here are Mastro's changes to the description:

"Please Note: We have added larger pictures of the "E Anoymous" Wagner and Carrigan cards to the web site. After closer examination we confirm that the Wagner card is in fact a previously uncataloged 1910's issue. This card is blank backed on paper stock slightly thinner than other "E" card issues."


The Carrigan card is just an orange border and has nothing to do with the uncataloged Wagner card.

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Posted By: Dennis

As I said in my earlier post I'm somewhat outspoken. I also respect and give kudos to the knowledgeable folks on this board. You guys (and girls) have helped me immensely in the past without you ever knowing it. Thank you.

Technology has led us to a point where in many cases we must make a decision to buy based on computer scans. That's great in as much as we have global access to the cardboard gems we cherish so. The negative part is that it opens up opportunity for the unscruptulious folks to sucker people in (see the numerous ebay posts in this forum). I do NOT believe this to be the case with the Mastro folks. I have much respect for them. Because I'm new, I feel I should offer a little insight as to my (somewhat limited) credentials. I was a software engineer for 15 years and have been a card collector since I was 10. I'm now 43 (and still get as giddy as I did back then when landing a nice card).

Again to the subject card. As other posters have mentioned - we do not have access to hold and examine the card. The bottom line is that the gentleman posted a scan and asked for advice. I gave mine and stand by it. In addition to the points I offered before consider:

The inconsistant shadowing of the Wagner image. No head shadow etc.

Magnify the the Wagner image and look where the cropping was inconsistant over Honus' right shoulder.

The aforementioned green background ends just short of the right border due to the cropped image being uncentered if layed all the way to the right edge.

Why would almost every known e-series candy card be so well designed and this particulair uncatalogued one (that just so happens to be a Wagner) be so shoddy. If it smells like a duck and quacks like a duck...

Sorry to be so long winded - I'll work on that in future posts.

Dennis
ALWAYS looking for t205 Minor Leaguers

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Posted By: Art M.

I used to have an unknown card of Mike McCormick in my collection. Maybe a relative of the Wagner?



Art

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Posted By: Dennis

Your card is similiar to the Wagner card but with some striking differences. Yours has a black border (off centered) around the red background. Your font is different and appears to be black. There is no "hair" around the the edges and corners. Your border is not lilly white. There is no two-tone background on yours. The Mccormick image is nicely placed within the red background even though there is a lot of red. etc...

Nice card and a nice addition to this thread.

Dennis

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Posted By: Dennis

When I say "Honus' right shoulder" I mean his right shoulder as you look at the card. His left shoulder in actually. Sorry

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Posted By: Paul

Why would Richard Egan have an uncatalogued E card when he is the one who catalogued the E cards (after Burdick stopped)?

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Posted By: bcornell

Art's card looks very similar to Wagner, at least to my eyes... The Mastro Wagner scans are very bright, but the font type and its color look the same. Not sure that that makes them "real", but Leon's point about "computer blah blah" is a good one - if the card was acquired by Egan in the 70's or earlier, it was before anyone had an easy means of faking things.

Bill

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Posted By: warshawlaw

is that this card is butt-ugly. I don't know if it is real (I have my doubts, but hey, I've seen other -unc cards before), but I've definitely seen better looking strip cards.

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Posted By: Gary B.

Can a genuine (if it is) Honus Wagner card from the 1910's really be ugly? Realistically, some issues are nicer or much nicer looking than others, but speaking as someone who doesn't yet own a period Honus Wagner card, if I owned this care, i would think it was beautiful.

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Posted By: Dennis

How did counterfeiters make funny money prior to the computer age?

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Posted By: hankron

As long as its been green, US paper currency have been engravings-- a centries old printing process involving the graphics literally carved into metal printing plates. Current and past advanced forgeries have made made with the same engraving process. Highest quality engraving, such as to make a dollar bill, is both technically difficult, time consuming and an art. Rembrandt was an example of a master engraver.

There was once a gang of criminals and forgers, amongst them a master engraver. Whenever this engraver was in jail, the gang had to quit forging money as he was the only one skilled enough to make and use the plates.