Cuban card forgery on ebay - Mendez

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Just in case someone on this board is bidding on it, ebay item #4128682776 "Rare Cuban Baseball Card of Negro League Great Mendez" is a fake. Here's a link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=4128682776

In fact the whole issue is a fraudulent one. It was created by using images from the Tomas Gutierrez set. It started to become obvious when only 7 or 8 examples had ever turned up and 3 of them happened to be Pop Lloyd, 2 of them happened to Jose Mendez, etc. Strangely, no examples of Hector Magrinat or Cheo Ramos, for example, were ever auctioned.

These were all sold through one auction house and I had thought the issue had been resolved and all examples taken care of (burning them, for example). I believe I am aware of who the creator of these was as well.

In case anyone has any doubt of this being the same card, I'm including a better scan of the one from the auction. Notice the spot in the upper left corner and the spot in the upper right corner near the border. Clearly the same card.

I've advised the seller but have yet to hear a response and the auction has not been pulled so I will also be contacting the high bidder once the auction ends.

-Ryan

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Posted By: runscott

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Posted By: Judge Dred

The seller of this card has withdrawn the item for auction. He said that the card came from a Jerry Smolin auction from a couple of years ago.

Is there any way to determine that the card is indeed a reproduction of some sort? The seller has withdrawn the item and perhaps a little due diligence can be offered to the seller regarding the claim of it being a reproduction.

Just a thought.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Yes, I have plenty to offer regarding the authenticity of this card. I've been contacted by the seller and will hopefully be speaking to him over the phone. After giving him further information, I would be happy to post more details about the card and issue.

I've held cards from this issue in my hands and have even taken examples to Cuba to confirm what I knew the minute I saw them in person: these cards are fake.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

I wanted to post that I've spoken with the seller over the phone and I've encouraged him to post here as well.

Once I contacted him regarding the authenticity of his item he cancelled the eBay auction. He did this BEFORE knowing for sure that it was fake. The fact that his item was called into question was enough for him to pull the auction and do some further research instead of letting the auction run another day until it closed.

There are a lot of posts on this board lamenting the fact that there are so few sellers on eBay that have integrity. This situation might be worthy of its own thread about ones that do.

I won't post his name here (although hopefully he will post it himself) but I will mention that his eBay ID is "piratesdad" and while I have never had any contact with him prior to today, I will be checking his auctions frequently for items to bid on from here on out.

It turns out he bought this item from what at the time seemed to be a legitimate auction house and had no reason to believe the card was not authentic. He was never told by the seller that the seller had already been informed that the cards were fakes BEFORE they were listed in the auction. In fact, they were listed in several consecutive auctions after that.

When I took these cards to Cuba, not only did the leading card expert on the island agree with me that they were fake, but he told me exactly how they were produced and that he knew the individual who made them.

From there the cards made their way to Florida and from Florida to this auction house. All examples of this "issue" came from this one consignor and were auctioned by this one auction house.

I was aware of who all the other bidders were and have helped all of them receive refunds for the fake cards they bought. There was only one I couldn't track down. I had hoped the auction house would see fit to contact this bidder and at least notify them that there was some concern about the authenticity of the cards, if not offer an immediate refund.

This eBay seller was that one bidder. He was never contacted by the auction house and therefore had no idea there had ever been any doubt about the issue.

Feel free to e-mail or call me for further details.

-Ryan Christoff

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Posted By: Sean Coe

As the Ebay seller of this card I was stunned when Ryan emailed me. The rather terse message simply stated that my card was a forgery and that he was going to contact the winning bidder. Frankly I questioned his motives, but at the same time with the cards authenticity being called into question felt there was little choice but to call off the auction. I cancelled the bids, informed the bidders of the situation and ended the auction. Ryan later contacted me with a full explanation as to why the card was a fake and a telephone conversation provided further info. It seems the auction house knew these cards were possible forgeries, but auctioned them anyway. Ryan told me of his efforts to help all the winning bidders of these cards obtain refunds and that he assumed or at least hoped I would be contacted, the one bidder he couldn't find. I was never informed of anything. I would never have bid on, much less attempted to sell the card at all except I thought it came from a trusted source- an auction house with, at least then, an excellent reputation. I want to thank Ryan for emailing me-it was a rather bitter pill to swallow but hopefully has eliminated the last of these forgeries.

Sean Coe

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Ryan is right. I applaud the seller of this lot for shutting it down, and I truly hope that the person he bought it from, who I previously had a lot of respect for, makes things right. There is not much question that the card is a fake; that it came from one particular auction; or that the auctioneer was repeatedly told that the cards were fake before he sold them. That is troubling.

Kenny Cole

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Actually, I think it is more accurate to say that the auctioneer was informed of concerns regarding authenticity before the auction ended and, after Ryan went to Cuba, was told that the cards were almost certainly fakes shortly after the auction ended.

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Posted By: prewarsports

I am just a passive observer on this post, but what can you find out in Cuba about a 70 year old baseball card that confirms it a fake? I am just curious. If someone told me that a OPC hackey card was possibly fake and they confirmed it by going to Canada, I wouldn't really understand. Are there types of paper they use down there that are illegal to import like cigars or something?

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Prewarsports,

I'm not sure if I understand your questions correctly, but I'll still try to answer them:

1. "Going to Cuba" is a phrase that would be similar to you saying you were "going to the store." It refers to a place (Cuba) and an action (going there).

2. As far as what I could find out in Cuba about a 70 year old baseball card that confirms it a fake: I'll refer to my earlier post, which I'm guessing you hadn't read:
"When I took these cards to Cuba, not only did the leading card expert on the island agree with me that they were fake, but he told me exactly how they were produced and that he knew the individual who made them."

Also, I wanted to have one of the leading expert's in Cuban baseball cards (probably THE biggest one in Cuba) see them in person and give me his opinion. If I had a 19th century issue that I thought might be fake, I'd sure like to have Terry Knouse, Lew Lipset, etc. look at it to see if they agreed with me.

3. As far as types of paper that are illegal to import, I can't even tell if this is a serious question or not. But the simple answer is, yes, there are plenty of papers and other things that are illegal to import from Cuba.

Feel free to e-mail if you have any other questions.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Rhett

Ryan, I am pretty sure Rhys was being sarcastic in his post, I wasn't clear what you were accomplishing by simply "going to Cuba" either. Now that you mention having a Cuban card expert (that happens to live in Cuba) looking at the card, I understand what you were referring to. It just sounded like in your post that you went to Cuba and it was revealed (maybe in an epiphany) that the card was fake. I know Rhys pretty well and he was just kidding, he wasn't trying to be rude, he just didn't understand what you were accomplishing by going to Cuba.
-Rhett

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Posted By: brian p

I neither know Rhys or Rhett, but what are the odds of having two collectors post on this board with different names both starting with 'Rh'?

Just a keen observer of silly, unimportant things,

Brian