WHY DO PEOPLE COLLECT 19th CENTURY?

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Posted By: Anonymous

Were collections passed down to you?
Are you really that old?
History Buff?
Did you hear of the players before you started collecting them?
Are they good investment? Can you give examples of price increases?

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Posted By: Adam Baxter

I was visited in the night by the ghost of 1890's Boston Catcher Marty Bergen, who told me that if I didn't preserve the memory of his baseball career and those of his contemporaries by collecting and hordeing 19th century baseball issues, that he would use his ax to turn me into a eunuch.

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Posted By: botn

Three years ago my complete EXMT set runs from 1976 to 2000 were taken from me at gun point. I was told that if I ever wanted to see the stuff again that I must start dealing in pre war. I hate the issues but I am forced to continue to buy those useless Cobbs and Wagners for a couple more years.

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Posted By: Joe P

It is obvious that:

1. You voted for Bush.

2. You have taken a terrible beating in the stock market.

3. You are in a desperate search for an oracle that doubles as an investment advisor.

Please allow me to break this to you gently.
The name of this forum is, "Vintage Baseball Cards."
It is populated by collectors that have a strong love for the history of the game, and it's cards.
You will not be happy here.

Kenneth Lay of Enron, would love to hear from you.
Give him a call, ..... tell him, Dubya sent you.

And now, let's talk about T217 Mono's.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I am into the history of the game and fell in love with 'old' cards after finding a price guide around 1980. As for 'good investment', collectibles should never be used as an investment. Your 401k or house is an investment. If you don't already have solid investments like these established, you shouldn't be looking to use collectibles as an investment vehichle.

Jay

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Posted By: Anonymous

1. You voted for Bush.
2. You have taken a terrible beating in the stock market.
3. You are in a desperate search for an oracle that doubles as an investment advisor.

I might suggest a variation on the above 3 items with respect to our visitor.

1) He lives under a bush.
2) He has taken terrible beatings from his parents.
3) He is in a desperate search for an orifice that doubles as an investment advisor.

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Posted By: Anonymous

You:
I am into the history of the game and fell in love with 'old' cards after finding a price guide around 1980. As for 'good investment', collectibles should never be used as an investment. Your 401k or house is an investment. If you don't already have solid investments like these established, you shouldn't be looking to use collectibles as an investment vehichle.

ME:
THanks for the honest and serious response. I was beginning to wonder if there were any here. I guess the answer is that they aren't the best investment? I enjoy collecting, and am sure I will never be able to afford much, which is why I would like to think that my cards will appreciate. I have put together some statistics and found the HOF rookies do well throughout the years (even through economic times-once you are through them). ALso, the higher graded cards do the best over the long term.

I am on the prowl for some good forums that don't specialize in pre-war, so that I can leave you lucky rich specialized group to your own....

Thanks for the "serious" response.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

You don't even pay attention to how many actual honest responses you got along the way, you just seem to response adversely to the constructive critism you were getting.

Wake Time,

You wouldn't happen to be related to a Dr. Koos?

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Posted By: Paul

A relative of his told me at a card show if I did not start buying tobacco cards to preserve his memory I would be hurting the feelings of his family. I could not live with the guilt....

Paul

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Posted By: warshawlaw

two reasons: history and rarity. The roots and history of baseball and the USA are tied together. Items from the earlier epochs are often extremely rare. Many on this board have items that are known in one or only a few specimens. Personally, I got bored with collecting cards that I could find at three dozen tables at every mall show in the country. Try hunting T206 ghosts or N172 variations for a while. And, I stand by what I said earlier: when the chips are down, so to speak, these cards will hold their value, not the modern slab purchases.

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Posted By: runscott

What does Your President, of Your country, have to do with this?

I'm sure there's a Republican-bashing forum around somewhere that you could participate in.

Sorry, guys, but this crap has been creeping in for a couple of years now and we've been ignoring it - it gets old, and it's stupid, and most of all - it has absolutely nothing to do with vintage anything.

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Posted By: PianoLegs

I suppose it was the history alone at first. They really are "relics" in the sense that they carry a bit of the nineteenth-century with them. The players' "blood is in the cards," so to speak (and not in the way that some companies will soon begin to slab dried blood from Cobb's spikes). They're remarkable frozen moments from a time in the game that very few people know much about. They mark an instant that most players considered a privilege, not a burden: posing on a diamond or going to a studio and having one's picture taken. I don't believe the game was any more pure or rarified (I live in Troy, NY--a city with a rich but shady baseball history), but it was somehow very different. It will never be that way again--and for some reason that hooked me.

Ultimately, however, it was the charisma of the cards themselves that kept me on the line (and forces me to wait another year for a new roof). When I first saw the 1887 n-690 Kalamazoo Bats Bastian-Lyons or the 1888 Old Judge n-173 Brouthers with bat Cabinet, I thought my eyes were fooling me. How could I have never seen them before? The graphics of an 1888 n-29 Allen & Ginter Album or an 1888 n-43 Allen & Ginter Getzin or ANY 1889 a-35 round album, still seem to be impossible accomplishments for that time period. There are certainly cards that are worth more money, but I don't think there could be many that are more astounding. [By the way, you can find images of any of these cards online--most of them posted by forum members].

I should probably add that, as a Cubs fan, this time period was actually GOOD for us. Although I prayed at Johnny Evers' grave before each playoff game, the results were mixed. So for another year I'll break out my round-cornered T-206's and turn double plays on my kitchen table all winter long. [By the by, if you happen to know the shmoe who wins that @#$%^& foul ball, could you please ask him to kill a goat with it?).

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Posted By: jay behrens

Ok, once again you are reading what you want to read. ALL CARDS, not just 19th century cards, ARE NOT an investment vehichle. They have the best chance of holding thier value and going up in the long term, but talk to all the poeple in the 1980s that thought they were going to be sending their kids to college on their investments in basbeall cards. You'd be hard pressed to find anyone that is getting their college paid for because of dad's investment in baseball cards.

When I was dealing full time in the 80s and talked to someone that wanted to invest in cards, I told them write a list of your favorite teams and players, and then buy those cards. That way, if the market bottoms out, you have something has some good memories attached to it.

Jay

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

of cards...........started buying/selling in 1983 or so and bought a lot of wax cards/sets/singles/etc. After realizing that that was washed up in the early 1990's, I went into autographs (hence my email address) and after those became fraught with peril, I moved to vintage cards.

Nothing better than looking at Old Judge cabinets or vintage cards like E-Caramel cards. While I do still have a lot of sets from the 1970's/1980's, there's just not the rush of getting a new Louisville Old Judge pose that I don't have. I can't compare that to picking up an 89 Upper Deck set because it's not comparable.

I guess to some people, completing a 1970 set in PSA9 is a real challenge, but I just can't see paying $20-$30 for a common card when there's 700 of them to complete a set. For $100 I can get a couple nice E90-1 American Caramel commons or a low-to-mid grade Old Judge card.

I REALLY don't understand someone buying graded brand new cards paying 1000's of bucks for them because they are basically a dime a dozen. Granted population reports may say that there's a small census of 10's but there's still so much wax on some of this stuff that no one can be really INVESTING in that stuff.......

But that's why there's so many different things people can collect. I also collect bats, baseball pens, bat banks, etc. There's probably few people here that don't collect more than one type of things......vintage photos, cards, bats, gloves, etc. Everyone sets their own investing targets or just based on their own likes and dislikes.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Thanks for the response. Very interesting. There is obviously a "love" here that I can respect. I was beginning to wonder if there were any respectable members here that are in it for the "love". You inspire me to stick around "quietly", if I can keep away from the "immature bashers".

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Posted By: Ben

Maybe a good start would be to post your name along with your messages. And yes, there are many knowledgable and passionate collectors that post on this board...sit back, relax, and enjoy.

Ben

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Posted By: Anonymous

MIKE: FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR A SERIOUS RESPONSE. There seemed to be a shortage of those here. Secondly, your story seems to most match my own.

YOU:
..........started buying/selling in 1983 or so and bought a lot of wax cards/sets/singles/etc. After realizing that that was washed up in the early 1990's, I went into autographs (hence my email address) and after those became fraught with peril, I moved to vintage cards.

ME:
I started with "current popular" rookies, at the time canseco and griffey. (I admit relatively a newbie). I went to every baseball card store and bought up rookies of all the current popular players. It was exciting to find new rookies that I didn't have yet since I had to go to several stores to find them. Shortly thereafter, ebay came into the picture....I couldn't realize why although Randy Johnson and Sosa had some pretty amazing stats yet their rookies were so cheap. It didn't take me long to realize that there were millions of rookies out there and that they would "NEVER" go up in value. Don't get me wrong, I wasn't initially buying the cards for strictly investment. I really enjoyed the game and the players and records and history and the like. It was easy for me to decide early that I wanted all the rookies I personally watched with my Dad that he was really fond of...bench, drysdale, koufax, etc...These were much harder to find in nice condition.

I soon found I was spending a lot of money, and realized that I wanted to know that it would be something "worthwhile" that I could pass down to my family (unlike my wife's seal collection) where it would have value.

I started doing research, and then I started compiling some statistics, and found that I could start a collection that I felt I could "complete" and that could potentially increase in value, AND I could enjoy...

THe plan was to have the best "centered" grade (within my budget) rookie of all HOF'ers and future HOF'ers from the T206 cards to present, as listed in the SMR. I wanted cards that I could be proud of, and found that there are some HOF'ers and Future HOF'ers that I just could not get excited about their rookie card, no matter how high the grade. Seriously, how excited can one get about a 1989 Donruss or UD Randy Johnson...yet my collection could not be complete without a nice card of his that would also be a good investment card. So, like you, I collected auto's of players that didn't have a good rookie card...and again, like you, the auto's went to hell. After a little research, I have found that I can find a rookie or pre-rookie of every HOF'er or future HOF'er that would be unique or in demand that could be considered for uniqueness and investment....Surprising enough, I have found that there are MANY collectors out there that share the same interst as me....

YOU:
Nothing better than looking at Old Judge cabinets or vintage cards like E-Caramel cards. While I do still have a lot of sets from the 1970's/1980's, there's just not the rush of getting a new Louisville Old Judge pose that I don't have. I can't compare that to picking up an 89 Upper Deck set because it's not comparable.

ME:
I can honestly respect that, and glad that there are so many that enjoy collecting the "OLD STUFF". For me, I just find it difficult to have an interest of someone I never heard of. But, that being said, there are several baseball players that I never heard of prior to collecting which are now a necessity in my collection (IE satchell paige) ==== no smart alecs here please. I have never professed to be a big history buff on the sport

YOU:
I guess to some people, completing a 1970 set in PSA9 is a real challenge, but I just can't see paying $20-$30 for a common card when there's 700 of them to complete a set. For $100 I can get a couple nice E90-1 American Caramel commons or a low-to-mid grade Old Judge card.

ME:
I guess everyone has their own interests. I never did understand myself why some people collect entire sets including commons of unknown by most players? That is beyond my comprehension, other than they just want to say the "completed" the set??

YOU:
I REALLY don't understand someone buying graded brand new cards paying 1000's of bucks for them because they are basically a dime a dozen. Granted population reports may say that there's a small census of 10's but there's still so much wax on some of this stuff that no one can be really INVESTING in that stuff.......

ME:
I personally ONLY buy the most limited sets of the HOFers. I don't see any sense in buying a 1986 Topps Traded Bonds card, even a MINT10... I do however own a 1986 TIFFANY BONDS BGS 9. Print run only 5000 and I would guess less than 100 in high grade exist. I want BOND's BEST CARD in the best condition I can find, especially when I know there are only 100 of them in the world.

YOU:
But that's why there's so many different things people can collect. I also collect bats, baseball pens, bat banks, etc. There's probably few people here that don't collect more than one type of things......vintage photos, cards, bats, gloves, etc. Everyone sets their own investing targets or just based on their own likes and dislikes.

ME:
AGREED - THANKS FOR THE HONEST AND SERIOUS POST...

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Posted By: jay behrens

"immature bashers"? Would you mean people that disagree with you about Beckett? Yes, you've been called to task for you spelling, but then this board is known for making fun of "retarts"

What you preceive as bashing from us, we preceive as pigheadedness from you. You have shown a remarkable ability fail to understand Beckett is a non-entity int eh vintage grading market, yet every time you talk about slabbed cards, Beckett gets mentioned. It's like going to an NRA meeting and trying to talk about the use of the bow. No one there is gonna care.

Jay

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Posted By: grilloj39

Simply because these players were the pioneers of the game. I like to think of it in these terms: If you love the sport, you probably will love the history as well. In a historical sense, these cards are great to have as well, and from a card collecting perspective, a 200 dollar vintage card will probably be worth 200 or more 3 years from now. Can't say that about modern cards.

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Posted By: Anonymous

JAY:
What you preceive as bashing from us, we preceive as pigheadedness from you.

ME:
First you talk about my spelling, like it makes any diffence in the world of baseball cards. Then you mispell yourself. I personally don't care if I mispell something, but if you enjoy doing so, you should at least run a spell checker on your own posts.

Secondly, I have noticed that every time you make a post, you use the word "WE". Don't you have a brain and opinion of your own. Why do you need to stand behind someone else.

JAY:
You have shown a remarkable ability fail to understand Beckett is a non-entity int eh vintage grading market

ME:
You obviously have a problem with the English language. Give me a quote of mine where I stated that Beckett is a major contender in the vintage world. JUST ONE. You keep accusing me of the same thing over and over, and I never have made any such statements.

Please give the beckett thing a "rest" like you have suggested yourself.

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Posted By: jay behrens

glad to see you have no clue when someone is being sarcastic in the written form. That's what the winking smiley is for. I've never pointed out your spelling or grammar and "retart" has become something of a running joke around here lately.

I stand behind everything I write 100%. Things that I've commented about you have been things that have said about you while talking to other board members, that is the reason for the "we", but it is still me jsut me saying it publicly.

And no, you have not claimed Backett is a player in teh vintage graded market, but you had this knack of always bringing up Beckett when vintage cards were mentioned so you can understand why me and many other people see you biased, pro-Beckett person.

Jay

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Posted By: 21st century

hey.....anyone in here know where I can find 1st, 2nd, and 3rd series Garbage Pail Kids cards? Also looking for unopened A'Team wax!

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Posted By: Hankron

I once met one of the folk who made the paintings for the Garbage Patch Kids cards, along with simularly bizzare commercial ventures-- John Pound, I think was his name. A most interesting person (I mean that in a positve way) with, as you would expect, a fertile imagination. You can commision him to do paintings for you. I considered having him do one of Henry in an alien landscape, but, of course, was too cheap to cough up the money.

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Posted By: Joe P

runscott you are right. (No pun intended.)

My remarks were no more connected to this vintage collectors forum than a vintage collector and a speculator would be.

Again, my apologies to you and this forum.

Joe P. (tobacco-r-us)