Any thoughts on whether this card would cross-over?

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Posted By: TBob

To either GAI, SGC or PSA?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2766206584&category=31718

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Posted By: TBob

I probably shouldn't include SGC in the group question based on their response to me when I suggested I'd like to see if an ASA card would cross-over and they said don't bother to even send it.

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Posted By: MW

TBob,

I do not know the exact context of your conversation/submission with SGC, but let me offer the following explanation:

If someone asked me if NASA or AAA graded "cards" were real, authentic baseball cards, I would answer, "No." But that is not to say that these two companies haven't graded some real baseball cards. In fact, I've seen groups of 1970s non-sport cards and 1955 Bowmans in NASA's and AAA's rudimentary holders. However, the fact remains that a very, very large percent of the material graded by these two companies would not be considered legitimate baseball cards by most experienced vintage collectors.

I think the same holds true for ASA graded cards. Unquestionably, in the late 80s and early 90s, some collectors, both from the United States and Canada where Mr. Hagar maintained a certain presence, submitted sports cards to ASA from their own collections. Many of these cards would probably be graded today by more reputable grading companies. But it should be pointed out that a staggering number of cards residing in ASA holders came from Mr. Hagar himself. This curious circumstance, along with the accompanying allegations of rampant monkey business, has come to taint much of the ASA graded product. Now, that's not to say that 100% of all ASA graded cards have been trimmed/altered, but I don't think it's unreasonable to reject certain types of ASA graded cards on specs (card types) alone. In fact, I think it says something positive for this hobby that a major grading company is willing to take such a stand***. Imagine, for instance, how much eBay would be improved, if the company (eBay) came out with an official statement rejecting the validity of AAA/NASA grading.


***for those who would like more information on ASA grading, an article in a back issue of VCBC by Dennis Purdy provides some interesting and valid viewpoints.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

TBob- It might cross but Hager used a different standard for vintage cards than he did for modern cards. So, if it did cross it would probably be a 5. Based on my experience with him, Hager knew when a card was trimmed or altered and would not put a card submitted by somebody in a holder that was tainted. However, many of his cards that he put in holders were trimmed or altered. I do not think that holder is recent so it is possible it was graded by somebody at ASA other than Hager.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I think the card is good and would cross over to a 5, 5oc, or possibly 5mc. As I mentioned before I had 40 or so of these cards and all have crossed over at about 2 grades lower. I recently bought a Dockman 4 that crossed over to a 2. The trimmed ones are easy to spot because they are almost always very trimmed.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

all have come back graded from SGC, albeit with grades 2-3 full grades below what ASA listed them as. So, not all of their cards are bad, but their grading is uniformly overstated.

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Posted By: TBob

My memory gets foggier with each passing year but I am having deja vu here. Didn't we (or someone else on the board) discuss this with respect to an ASA T207 Lowdermilk which ultimately crossed over in to a PSA or SGC holder, not a true cross over as I think the card was broken out and then submitted? Might not have been you, Adam, but this strikes a faint chord in my mind...

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Posted By: BcD

but yes, some of the ASA cards do! These two are plainly trimmed.

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Posted By: TBob

I hope evryone believes you Brian, then there shouldn't be much bidding competition.

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Posted By: runscott

JMO - good luck with the bidding.

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Posted By: BcD

Being as I know who's collection they were in five years prior to Hagger,(from the movie grease), owned em! I feel confident in my assesment Bob so beware my brother beware!

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Posted By: TBob

He laid down a starting bid and backed it up with a higher bid. I guess he may plan on crossing it over with PSA, they seem to be grading anything and everything lately.

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Posted By: runscott

Put a card in front of Scott B and myself, and I'm absolutely certain he would be better able to judge if it had been altered.