Blast from the past...

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Posted By: Mike Williams 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2763981950&category=31718

Damn shame! Hope everyone is well...

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Posted By: Hankron

"A Private Auction to preserve the integrity of the auction..."

When the first words out of the seller's mouth is a lie, you know you're in for a treat.

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Posted By: botn

I have heard the stories and now I get to see an image of the subject card.

He should have tried to cross it to a PSA holder before putting it up in the PRO holder.

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

What is history of this card for those of you who know? - thanks peter

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Posted By: Tim

The seller is nurse Richard Koos or A.K.A. Danny Kupchek. He is not to be trusted. He also deals in restored comic books and has been on numerous collectible boards for being a lying cheat.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

But I believe there are several posts by Koos in the early archives of the VBBC forum. Interesting reading. I believe that Elliot had to edit many of his posts.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

I sent him an email asking if he considered PRO a professional grading service and thus making the card unreturnable. It will be interesting to hear a response.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

Here is the pesponse I received:

Lee,
Thank you for your interest. Difficult question, difficult card. Pro is
SUPPOSED to be a Professional operation. I think we ALL know just what Pro
really is. Iffy, chancy stuff with the fact being that if a card had been slabbed
by Pro, odds are that SGC and PSA won't slab it. Pro is one step above NASA
and AAA in that Pro at least grades REAL cards, but Pro itself is many steps
below SGC and PSA.
I still see MANY trimmed and bleached cards in PSA holders, but I can't
say that I've ever seen a blatantly processed card in an SGC holder.
With Pro, I see an extremely high rate of processed cards, slabbed. The
most common alteration being trimming, followed by re-backing, in-painting,
bleaching/cleaning.
That leads us to this Jax. I bought the card already Pro slabbed for
$8900 CASH. Had just started buying cards and didn't know any better (stick with
SGC/PSA). I was smart enough to MEASURE the card and bring a few E90-1s for
comparison and louped them and the Jax.
I saw, and still don't see, any detectible differences between this Jax
and any other E90-1 with respect to paper stock, thickness, texture, color,
dot pattern, etc., both front and back. The cards I brought for comparison and
still can compare against were all VG/Ex'ish with evenly rounded corners (so I
could compare size on cards that sized by the ruler/guide specs that I KNEW
were not trimmed). The Jax is equal to the LARGEST of the E90-1s that I can
compare it to across BOTH dimensions so I am CERTAIN that it is not trimmed. The
portraiture is exactly the same dimensions as another G/VG Jax that I compared
it to (about a year later) that was PSA slabbed, so the card cannot be
STRETCHED, then trimmed. Having had other E90-1 cards over the past 3 years for
comparison, I cannot possibly fathom the card being some kind of construct or
reprint (as I've heard tales of).
Back to Pro. I know they're S**T, but I DO believe in the card as much
as anyone can believe in something raw. I started the bid at $4900 and change
($4000 less than I paid). The card, technically, is "graded". Whether the
company is professional, semi-professional, or un-professional. If someone is
willing to crack it out and take a chance on submission to SGC or PSA, and SCORES,
God-Bless. BUT, I don't want it back if they DON'T score. Just like I
wouldn't expect a casino to give me back my bet if I lost a big hand of Blackjack.
They're basically taking $4000 less of a chance on it being a $20,000 card than
I did 3.5 years ago!! I'm not a gambling man. I have no luck for it. If they
buy it and DON'T resubmit it, they're getting a beautiful card anyway, although
Pro graded, and paying a fraction of what it would command if SGCed. Either
way, I'm taking a $4000 hit in the teeth on it if it auctions (which of course
it may not).

Respectfully, -Richard


I always find it generous that people are willing to lose money for me.

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Posted By: TBob

Why wouldn't you submit it, in the holder, to SGC, PSA or GAI for a "cross-over?" That way if it was rejected, you would still have the slabbed card in a PRO holder and if the card WERE legit, it would make an extra $5k to $10k. I don't understand...

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Posted By: runscott

Wouldn't PSA or SGC have to remove the card from the PRO holder to grade it?

I wouldn't have much confidence in any grading company that would grade a card through a thick piece of plastic.

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Posted By: runscott

If PRO slabbed it once, I'm sure they'd slab it again.

In any case, the seller already stated his intent in his email to Lee. Obviously he doesn't think the card would grade at PSA or SGC, and if he submitted it and it got rejected, it would soon become common knowledge and the mystique of "would it grade at SGC or PSA?" would no longer exist, i.e: it would be just another altered card in a PRO holder.

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Posted By: Charlie

He'd probably be better off taking the card out of the PRO holder and listing it

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Posted By: Hankron

Charlie, I agree with you. Even if he had it rejected by PSA or SGC, but the paperwork indicated it was only trimmed not fake, that would bring more money than if it's a PRO holder.

Though it often doesn't feel good, knowing when to cut(minimize and asap) your losses is part of good business. Holding onto a finacial mistake for year after year, under the feeling that as long as you don't sell it for a loss it isn't a loss, is ordinarilly a longterm financial mistake.

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Posted By: Paul Adams

Wouldn't you construe the strategy of unslabbing it and selling it raw as being even more deceptive?

I emailed him as well and I have a different perspective on the issue and business in general that I am in agreement on with the seller.

The seller no longer buys baseball cards or related items and concentrates his efforts on the comic hobby. Which if anyone is currently following, is like a runaway 1000 car freight train. He's liquidating items purchased when he invested in sports-elated materials.
Investors make good investments and bad investments in trying to fill their cart with wares to sell but still will tenaciously sit on a mistake until they recoup their pay price on the item.

Not taking any consideration into the "shelf-life" of an item, they tie up countless thousands of dollars on inventory that they will never recoup their initial investment peacemeal. Then, they will try desperately to scrounge up X amount of dollars to buy a collection that they don't have the liquid funds for because they have X amount of dollars just sitting on shelves in dead weight.

You see it constantly. Go to any major show and there's guys that have bought major collections, made a good chunk of their outlay back (and then some) by selling the fast moving "meat", and now they have a million dollars worth of "potatoes" that they'll never move 1/10th of at the prices they have marked on them, and they're wondering why while grossing $300,000 in card sales last month, they don't have enough money in their account to pay the phone bill! Meanwhile, if they marked all the same items that they've been carting from show to show over the past two years, 50% off, 3/4 of the cinder blocks would sell and they could not only pay the phone bill but have another couple of hundred thousand to buy new inventory with.
If it's part of "permanent inventory", it's not helping anybody. Neither buyer nor seller.

If the card auctions at $5000, the seller is taking a $4000 bath on that particular buy, but it's also $5000 that he could probably roll into $10,000 buying comics, faster than he could get $10,000 as what it is dealing in a marketplace he's no longer involved in.

He's selling it, as bought. What's the mystery?

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Posted By: Charlie

Maybe unslabbing the card would be more deceptive but do you think he cares? I'm sure the card has been to every major grading company there is...that's a way of deception too.

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Posted By: botn

I do not think that the card is original on any level. How large would the card have to have been in order for someone to trim it down to NM and still size? The color looks wrong and the borders are too white.

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Posted By: Hankron

Paul, that was largely my thinking.

How long has Koos owned this card? 4 years? Let's say he resold it 4 years ago for its legitimate then and current value of $2,000 (this is only a pure guess on my part, for argument purposes). With that $2,000 I bet many folks on this board, and maybe even Koos himself, could use it to buy and sell good cards (or comics in Koos' case) on eBay and very easily double that $2,000 over (maybe triple or quadruple) by over these past 4 years ... And, humorously, Koos would no doubt think you were an complete idiot if you asked him out of the blue, "Which would you rather in your wallett right now? $4,000+ or $2,000?"

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Posted By: TBob

I thought that PSA, SGC and GAI looked at the card in the slab to see if it WOULD crossover and if it would, they opened it and graded it and put it in their holder. I might be wrong here. I know some services allow you to put down a minimum grade you want on the cross-over (SGC I think does this) and if it won't make it, they leave the card slabbed in its holder.
Any one know for sure?

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Posted By: leon

Scott, from SGC, called me last week and asked if I wanted one of my PSA 7 cards crossed over even if it did not get an 84 (or 7)....I told him that I didn't want to go to a lower grade. The card is coming back in a PSA holder, not crossed over. I think they would have only given it a 6.....so the answer, at least where SGC is concerned ( not sure about the others but I presume they are the same ) is that they do give them a good look through the current plastic tomb to see if they will make the current grade.....regards all

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Posted By: ockday

Bob..I have sent cards to PSA for crossover and they do NOT remove the card from the holder you send it in unless it crosses over to your specified PSA grade.
That being said I guess one could take a chance and buy the card , send it to PSA overnight for 2 day crossover service which costs $25.00, and see what happens assuming you have confidence in the sellers stated 7 day return policy . Of course if the card was legitimate then why wouldn't the seller do this himself?

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Posted By: runscott

I still don't see how they can accurately grade a card that is still entombed in a PSA holder - what about all the "microscope" work for determining alterations?

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Posted By: Paul Adams

That's my feeling as well. With Pro, the general assumption is that something is amiss with the card (that's what Pro is for). Because of this common knowledge (common to experienced collectors familiar with Pro graded material), I may be wrong, but I would think that before a service that prides itself on its reputation like SGC (and PSA as well, although I have seen them slab more than their fair share of altered cards) they're going to want to unslab a card that is the magnitude of a high grade E90-1 Jax before they will commit to passing it through as unaltered.

Looking at something through layers of glass or plastic leaves alot to be desired for close examination.

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Posted By: TBob

I thought I had heard right, that you send the slab in for cross-over and they examine it through the plastic to decide the possible grade and if it will cross.
An interesting sidelight is that I have a very rare card which looks o.k. but it is an ASA holder. I emailed SGC to check on their cross-over policy and told them it was in an ASA holder and they told me not to bother submitting it. That seemed weird to me because there ARE some cards in ASA holders floating around which aren't trimmed or altered and I didn't know how SGC could make such a presumption without even seeing it. But then again I am not one of the "good old boys" who knows these guys on a first name basis. That's why I have sent my last 75 pre-war cards to GAI for grading and not SGC nor PSA. They are consistent, fair, (pretty strict and tight on suspected trimming though) and their slabbed cards are starting to acquire more value when it comes to sales. Despite the fact SGC is a stricter grader than PSA on pre-war cards in general, I still think PSA cards because of their history and longevity and name recognition do the best in the market but I see that changing in the future in prewar cards.

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Posted By: runscott

those blasted commas...

I always read the "Shoebox" catalog because of all the fantastic items it has, but of course at 2X book value for most vintage cards, I have never purchased from Wayne. In the last catalog, I noticed that he had loads of GAI and SGC cards, and that GAI cards with the same grade had a slightly higher price tag. My initial conclusion was that GAI cards are doing better than SGC. Wrong conclusion. I couldn't tell from the b&w newsprint photos if the cards were actually in the same condition, but I doubt it.

The day after receiving the Shoebox catalog I received my first GAI card, a t206 green portrait Cobb. It was graded "G-VG" and would probably have drawn a VG from any other grading company. But if you are buying the card (which you should be) instead of the holder, being one half grade tougher than the competition doesn't mean a damned thing - a GAI 2.5 Cobb has the same value as a PSA 3. So what? By doing this, GAI can present the illusion that Bob just described. Hobbyists see that a GAI 3 has a higher value than an SGC or PSA 3 - duh, of course, it's a better card! Also, I'm not convinced that GAI is consistent about their grading - sometimes a GAI 3 appears to mean the same thing as a PSA or SGC 3. Personally, I will stick with SGC cards - consistent and few mistakes. But GAI is OKAY.

Sidenote - to buy from Shoebox, do you call up and offer 1/2 of his catalog price? I can't imagine he sells anything at those prices.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

SGC will crack out your cards unless you ask them not to and will cross them over downwards. I recently sent in two big ticket cards that were PSA 7's for reholdering into SGC holders for my type collection. I put on the invoice that they were not to be cracked out unless the grades were equal or better. Since I submitted some other cards for cross-over that I simply wanted changed over, SGC called me to verify the instructions. Good company.

With respect to the issue of grading through plastic, I have to disagree in part and agree in part. I can readily spot 90 percent of typical defects and grade conditions through holders, esp. with the help of a small maglite I bring to shows. For example, when I stupidly purchased an N28 in a PRO 7 holder, I was able to spot the white edge from the trim job through the holder, and I've spotted numerous hairline creases on beautiful 4's this way. So, I believe that any grader can get a pretty good read on a card through a holder, at least enough to rule out 90 percent of the overgrades. That being said, an interesting issue arises: if the service allows you to refuse cross-over unless the card meets a specific minimum, a contract is created. If they crack out the card and award a lower grade, I believe they would owe you the difference in value as damages for breaching their contract.

ASA: yes, there are legit cards in ASA holders, just as there is probably at least one legit card in a PRO holder. I had two 48 Leaf cards in ASA holders that I picked up only because they were cheap and were blank backs. I cracked them out before I sent them in to SGC. Both were graded. IMHO, I would not bother to cross-over anything from any company other than the big 3.5 (PSA, SGC, Beckett, SCD [the 0.5]. The others are so badly in disrepute that I think a crack out and clean submittal would do better. After all, as all grading services remind you, grading is subjective!

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Posted By: Peter Thomas

I had over 40 ASA holdered E cards. I cracked them out of the holders several years ago and sent them to PSA and they all graded. They were all OK but also way overgraded by Hager - an average of 2 full grades with only one card receiving the same grade.

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Posted By: runscott

However, all ASA cards I have owned were fine, and were graded accurately.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

I purchased and submitted quite a few ASA cards. So far the ones I submitted (directly to Hager at shows) have all been graded and received similar grades by PSA. The ones I bought already graded from Hager have mostly come back trimmed or altered. The letters Hager used at the beginning of his serial #'d sequence indicated the grader of the card but I have no idea what his was.
I also sent a card in another holder to PSA and requested a 7 or higher. They are not supposed to crack the card out of the holder unless it meets the grade but in this case I guess after they cracked it out they felt it was trimmed so I got it back in NO holder with an evidence of trimming label. In the holder it must have looked okay but after examining it up close they felt it was trimmed.

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Posted By: runscott

That makes much more sense than what I had been hearing. I was stunned to hear on these recent posts that the grading companies usually do not crack out cross-over cards.

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Posted By: Albie O'Hanian

runscott - I think you meant PSA. Shoebox cards does not carry any (or very little) SGC cards.

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Posted By: botn

Bob,

The way that the crossover service works with the grading companies is that the card is broken out after it is determined to meet the submitter’s requirement for the grade. The card IS graded in the holder.

PSA's crossover service specifically states that they will not break the card out unless it crosses to the customer’s request. I was not able to find anything about SGC’s or GAI's service.

SGC and GAI will not break a card out unless they are 100% comfortable with the card. If they are unsure the card will come back in it's original holder and the submitter will have to make the determination to allow GAI or SGC to break the card out and grade it.

In all instances I am sure that more accurate grading is done on cards in raw form. It would not surprise me that a grader might find something wrong with the card that would prevent it from crossing or grading at all, once having been examined outside of the holder.

PSA's site obligates them to holder a card once it is broken out. I do not see that with SGC or GAI.

Greg

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Posted By: botn

Someone placed a bid on the PRO Jackson. Man, I am selling the wrong stuff.

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Posted By: Paul Adams

What do you feel is the right stuff? Or wrong stuff? Wouldn't Ebay be the most boring market venue in the world if Buyers were relegated to choices that were edited and censored by your designation of "acceptible choices" at "acceptible prices"?

The seller has been perfectly candid in making full disclosure on the history and pitfalls of the card with every inquiry as to his mixed feelings and experience with Pro grading. Myself included.

He has been been perfectly candid and upfront to Mr.Behrens who was good enough to present an email he received upon his inquiry here.

Beyond that, it should be up to Ebay to dictate policy on what can and cannot be offered on their site extraneous to only items that you find acceptible for sale. Otherwise, that would no longer be a marketplace. It would be a dictatorship.

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Posted By: botn

I have no issue with this particular seller or the subject matter that is sold on eBay as long as full disclosure is made when warranted. This seller has done that.

My comment was tongue in cheek. Might want to lay off the caffeine you seem a touch uptight. I was merely pointing out that any retailer would love to have a buyer who had nearly 5K to throw away on what most of us feel is a worthless item.

Thanks so much for your reply!

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

between us on this card for the scoop and your cards will be in your posession on Wednesday.

T-bob,you know the answer to your question as to why it has or has not..

Charlie,you are incorrect.The card has NOT been to PSA or SGC ever.

David-your silly about the value then and now being as the card is a reprint it had the same value four (actually three),years ago as it does now.That would be about $6.00.The price realized in an E-bay auction for an "old-Reprint".as opossed to a ,"New reprint" with an ACV of $3.25.

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Posted By: Paul Adams

Three of four posts you made here have included nothing but negativity, and you advise me to "chill out".

Are you in the habit of sitting back and taking a moment to consider the entirety of your posts before sending them?

Above, you go as far as to say that the card is an "art project". That to you, the colors, the edges, the size, the borders, the look (how about the "feel", you left that out?) are wrong. As if you can judge these things from scanned images. Right after that statement, I realized that no matter what was said about this card, you would impart some type of negative spin in any and all posts connected with this card or seller.

Do you have a few E90-1 Jaxs at hand to compare colors on? Or were you comparing the colors of this one to a weather-beaten, faded out, scuffed up Fair example you possibly saw at a card show 5 years ago? I'm going to bet that the latter is the case, because if you did have 3 or 4 E90-1 Jaxs to compare this scanned image to, you would first be able to note that each of them was a slightly different shade of purple and each of them had a slightly different shade of red "moustache" positioned differently on each card dependent upon inconsistant register.

Did you ever notice that curious effect about pre-WW 1 Vintage color cards? I've got three red portrait Cobbs, two of the three from the same series, tobacco brand and factory number and all three are slightly different shades of red with slightly different facial features dependent upon inconsistant register.

Point is, even if you had ten different Pro graded NM Joe Jax cards, each one would differ in hue very slightly.

Also, the border colors look fine from here. Possibly, your monitor is set too "hot". Too bright. Ever think of that? Possibly, the seller's scanner was set too hot or bright, or his monitor too dark. I see cream borders with toned infiltration common and consistant to what I see when I look at any of my 200 or so E cards. No difference and certainly nothing that stands out as remarkable.

The card may very well be altered, but none of these observations you made are in any way valid. Especially when you make the statement, "The card is NG" quite emphatically.

I think that anyone with enough technical expertise to sit in judgement on the merits of this card being unaltered would wish to do so after examining the card itself in person, and not through scanned images. But then again, I may be thinking unbiasedly, with more logic, and not given to speak harshly on the subject of a card in question that I haven't seen in person just to see my words in print.

I think I'm all chilled out very nicely now. Your concerns over my welfare are duly noted and greatly appreciated. I'll keep you up to date regularly on my caffeine intake, since it's a major source of your consternation.

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Posted By: botn

I am very familiar with Jackson rookies. I personally own 4 E90-1 Jackson rookies at this time, since I have an obsession for the card. All are graded at least a VG 3 by real grading companies. I also have a lower grade example on my site. Over the past 4 years I have sold 5 other copies. You are right I know nothing about the card. But this is not about me but about how wrong you are about what you think that you know about this specific card and me.

I highly recommend that before you open your mouth again on a subject that you apparently know nothing about that you check your facts. That is unless you do not mind making a complete buffoon out of yourself here. Your posturing as an expert is very impressive but entirely unnecessary.

You have been very defensive towards me when others have also made what you call, "negative" comments about the card. I guess you must be insulted by my comment about the bid that you placed on the card.

Cheers!

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Posted By: Paul Adams

Would you care to place a very large wager on that statement, Sir Know-all, See-all?

You see others here speaking out against me? Where do you see this and why would they?

You have 5, 10, or 15 Joe Jax E90-1s and they are all the same exact color and the same exact register?

That's very special, Baron Munchausen! But let's get back to your perception of your infallibility as a prognosticator, soothsayer, and seer. Your uncanny singular ability of omnipresence.

Do you really believe in what you say? Enough to make a large wager? Again, without really knowing, you are quite sure that I am bidding on this card. I say that you are wrong and this is just one more of your know-it-all statements that have no basis on personal knowledge beyond idle random speculation, as incredible a concept as that may be to you that you may be wrong about something. This is quite a simple thing to find out, either way. Let's nip you in the bud since you believe that you're dealing with children who are beneath your advanced station in life.

Let's see if you really believe in yourself. I am willing to meet to make a documented "all-in" wager of an extremely substantial amount, involving property, homes, businesses, personal holdings and other tangible property, and liquid assets equal to the limits of your wager, which I hope will be a sizable one since you are so sure that you have all the answers therefore I must be bluffing.

The bet is simple. If I at any time did bid on that card, even if I retracted, you win. I'm the jerk and you're a very rich man if you weren't already.

If I didn't bid on the card at any time, I win, you're the jerk and I'm a richer man. I'm quite serious about the whole matter.

For once, just one time, will you have the courage to stand behind your words with a wager or not? Will you make this wager so you won't embarrass yourself any further in front of your peers with an ever increasing string of hogwash that you have no intention of backing up?

Of course, there's the coward's alternative. Please feel free to rant about "how ridiculous this is", and "I don't care who's bidding on it", and all the rest of the BS that you'll follow up this post with in avoiding the one inevitible question I posed to you, which I would side-wager, you'll skirt the issue on and not accept the challenge on:
Will you wager on if I have placed a bid on this card or not?

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Posted By: runscott aka "Bill Smith"

I would bet money that you HAVE indeed placed a bid in this "private auction". It sounds, "Paul", like you know the seller's card pretty well. I would even wager that when the seller posts his '52 Mantle...again...and again....you will also bid on that. Good luck, and I hope you continue to enjoy these cards and the amusement they provide the vintage card world.

P.S. - I think you are a great addition to this board, as you are both insightful and persuasive in your arguments, but I would hate to see the virtual fighting get out of hand again. Also, yes, we've seen how well comics are doing, and realize that "the seller" is also selling lots of these.

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Posted By: Paul Adams

How much would you like to wager since you've decided to step forward and make an offer to bet that I am the bidder on the card.

Unlike yourself, and your fellow flock of sheep that you race to defend against "the big bad wolf", I have no use for empty words, and no use for those who are willing to back them up. Back them up with a legitimate wager, let's all meet to enact the wagers, let the chips fall where they may, or don't bother speaking at all, with no jack to back up the smack.

It's very easy to make ill-conceived statements off the top of your head that mean nothing. Children do it all the time, and don't have to be held accountable for it. Men should choose their words more carefully. That's what being a man is about.

Now, you said you'd like to bet that I'm the bidder, right? What would you like to wager and how do I get paid when you're proven wrong. Tell me. Should a child honor his bet or not? Will you?

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Posted By: runscott

I thought YOU were claiming to be the bidder on the card, which seemed probable (why would I doubt you?). However, it really doesn't matter as your Mantle and Jackson are a very, very tired subject.

Also keep in mind that Greg hasn't heard the entire history of these cards as the rest of us have, so he has come to his own conclusions based entirely on looking at the real Jacksons he owns and comparing to your scan. Personally, I can't tell one way or the other - but I don't buy PRO cards, so that's irrelevant. You did, it was a mistake, now you're dealing with it - I have no problem with that.

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Posted By: Paul Adams

In other words, you know the contents of my collection? You've been to one of my homes, or businesses? You have access to my inventory program files? You've presonally reviewed my card holdings as well? You know exactly which Mantle cards I own, even though to my understanding of my collection, I don't own any post 1935 sportscards?

This gets more bizarre by the moment. What appears to be happening here is that if you're one of the Vintage Board "Good ol'Boys" club, you can say anything you want about any subject or anyone else that isn't in this "Secret Sphincter Handshake Society".

I did nothing more than post my opinion on a card, like anyone else and the raptors came flying in from all sides to attack me.

Well, I want to take a flying stab at this BS. Just to glean some understanding of how this nonsense works.

OK Runscott. You're called RunScott because your stockings run. Underneath your 3 piece business suit, you wear a garter belt and stockings that always run because you have knobby, pointed knees. Due to this quirk, you hate asparagus, love brussel sprouts, and become suicidal at the mere sight of broccoli because your uncle GreatScott was once hurt when a crate of Andy Boy Broccoli fell off a swerving truck and hit him upside his head (As if I have a real clue about the life and times of RunScott, or care).

See, I'm a wizard as well, just like you! Now I'll sit back and listen to more of your BS (as if you have a clue about anything to do with me). Tell me more about me. As little as you do really know about me (absolutely nothing!), it's probably equal to what you know about anything else.

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Posted By: Paul Adams

My scan? My cards? My Mantle and My Jackson???
Now I'm the seller, as well as the bidder and owner of this Pro graded card? What else, Scott? Am I the entity known as Ebay also?

This is because I spoke on the card, quoting from and using references taken from the seller's email to another Board Member? Because I gave my own honest observations on the card and Pro grading? I do believe that I had intimated that I don't trust Pro, nor would own one of their cards. Did we miss that point somehow?

I sure do hope that you're never on a jury for a case where some poor schmuck's life is in the balance. This is too funny!

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Posted By: runscott

I don't own a 3-piece suit;however, I do own a 3-piece vintage baseball uniform. I have my priorities.

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Posted By: runscott

You're not fooling anyone.

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

This is not an attack agianst you Paul just a counter to one of your arguements.

If indeed the seller is selling to card to recoup money to buy comics to make more money, why not start it at $1 and let the market fall where it may get the max at this time (no matter what the loss) and move on. There is just too many negatives involved in this auction. If I had the card I would have cracked it oout of the PRO holder and sold it raw, it sure takes alot of doubt out of the auction.

That's my economics lesson for the day.

Lee

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Posted By: Paul Adams

I'm willing to meet in person to make that bet and collect on my winnings that backs up my words. Are you? Is this your way of weasling, rat-faced out of backing up your smack? You say I'm the bidder. You say I'm the seller. You say you're willing to bet on it. I say that you are a BS artist supreme and will back my statement with a huge bet while proving this fact. Are you willing to ante up or what?

I'm off next week, all week, and am willing to fly to you to set up and enact this bet that you've already agreed that you'd like to make. Stop BS'ing and start suggesting some kind of sizable wager or are you going to attempt backpedaling and try worming your way out of this wager that you already said you'd make.

I've already contacted the seller by email. He's saved his "My Ebay" page as of this moment that IDs who the one bidder on the card is. This should be all the info we need to settle any wager on if I am the bidder once we get together, finalize the bet transfering the wager so the winner can take all once we ascertain contact info from Ebay on whether or not the bidder is me.

Now, once and for all, without any of your BS, are you going to make this bet or worm your way out of it and keep being a lowlife BS artist your entire life.

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Posted By: botn

Scott,

Actually I was not posting here at the time that this magnificent specimen was sold to its current owner but I know all of the gory details and then some.

"Paul", who has a very distinct writing style and who is overly defensive of the seller makes it abundantly clear who he is and what his motives are.

To think that we would not hear from Koos during a time that he lists one of his most possessions. Wasn't his last appearance here when he listed the twin 52T Mantle?

Greg

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Posted By: BcD

And it bounced. Was going to give you details you do nor know .

write me here:

Cardknowledge@earthlink.net

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Posted By: runscott

Go back and read through your posts in this thread one by one - you start off on dry land and work your way into outer space. Your posts begin well-constructed and coherent, then get combative, then get insulting, then begin discussing "male-ness" issues, then offer to meet board members in person, and next step will be a regression to body fluids discussions.

Just take your pills and contribute like everyone else - there's no shame in needing medication to help you play well with others.

And this has nothing to do with bravery, and everything to do with intelligence - no one is going to meet you in person, because your flippin' psycho, and yes, most of us ARE afraid of you. It's only normal for the healthy to shy away from the mentally unsound.