Color Fro joys, seller needs proof of reprints!

[Archive]

Posted By: dan mckee

Maybe if some of you would also write this guy, then he will become honest. Thanks for the support. Please read from bottom up. Dan.



sorry my friend, I haven't emailed a single customer of yours, that is not my
business, I just try to educate sellers of what they are selling. If you need
proof, pick up a standard baseball card price guide, it plainly states in there
that all of the color copies are reprints.

I see your motive now and I will no longer bother you.


take care sir


> 1st of all why should i believe you, how do i know they are reprints, you
> have provided no proof to me, hell i dont even know who you are, i also will
> be filing a complaint with my ebay powerseller customer rep since you have
> been emailing my customers, SPAMMING!!!!!!!! go bother someone else while
> you still are an ebay member............have a nice day!
>
>
> >From: "wacky packages" <bandache@comcast.net>
> >To: "k c" <kingcollectibles@hotmail.com>
> >Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2763781372
> >Date: Tue, 4 Nov 2003 17:49:42 -0500
> >
> >You can easily cancel the auction or add to the description now.
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "k c" <kingcollectibles@hotmail.com>
> >To: <bandache@comcast.net>
> >Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 5:23 PM
> >Subject: Re: Question for seller -- Item #2763781372
> >
> >
> > > i have an automatic lister being done by an auction management company
> >and
> >i
> > > am trying to get it corrected---thanks for your concern
> > >
> > >
> > > >From: bandache@comcast.net
> > > >To: kingcollectibles@hotmail.com
> > > >Subject: Question for seller -- Item #2763781372
> > > >Date: Tue, 04 Nov 2003 13:54:45 PST
> > > >
> > > >These are reprints and I have wrote you before. You seem to not want to
> > > >listen so I will be writing ebay next. Why sell fakes as real? You have
> > > >decent feedback, no need to steal.
> > > >--------------------
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Question from: darby-s
> > > >Title of item: 1928 OLD BABE RUTH CARDS FRO-JOY ICE CREAM AD
> > > >Seller: kingcollectibles
> > > >Starts: Nov-03-03 20:52:39 PST
> > > >Ends: Nov-04-03 20:52:39 PST
> > > >Price: Currently $9.99
> > > >To view the item, go to:
> > > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2763781372
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

I emailed the seller last week to say that the sheets were reprints, and he/she/it never responded. Honest people who aren't knowledgeable in the area and made an honest mistake, either respond to such an email and/or fix the description. Honest people almost always thank you for the help.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

Honestly, I'm not trying to be self-serving with the first source, but many people need to see things in print. Mention to the seller the following sources that specifically say that the color sheets are modern reprints:

http://www.cycleback.com/baseballcards/5.html

Standard Catalog of Baseball Cards (Krause)

Beckett Almanac of Baseball Cards

Sportscard Counterfeit Detection, by Bob Lemke (Krause Publications)

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob M (ramram)

Check these two different auctions of his and see what you think.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2763781372
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2763556045
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2763293467
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2763108012
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2762101390
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2761850935
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2761674148
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&category=31719&item=2761494998
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2763781372
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=31719&item=2763994446

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob M (ramram)

Pardon me, that should read TEN different auctions. I'm sure he's been doing this for much longer than these even show. Must be paying off that color scanner.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

I'm not fond of the seller, but the buyers are ignorant about what they are buying and that's their issue not anyone else's. No matter what area you are buying-- autographs, baseball cards, Gia Carangi memorabilia, toy soldiers--, if you don't don't educate yourself beforehand, I promise (repeat: promise) that you that you will make some big mistakes in your purchasing (more often relating to valuation rather than authenticity).

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob

This is slightly off topic, but how evident is the rim around the ink on a real Fro Joy sheet. The Cycleback website indicates that the rough card stock will obscure the appearance of the rim. I purchased an uncut sheet a while back and it apppears that there is some heavier ink around the edges of some letters and dots, but it is not strong, however, the card stock appears rough.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

What are you using to look at it?

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Posted By: Rob

I have been using a binocular microscope that magnifies to approximately 75x. The grain of the paper and the shape and distribution of ink is fairly evident.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

A 75x power microscope is strong enough. Offhand, I would the dark rim would be distinct.

When the paper or cardstock is rough, this rim might be obscured. In these cases, there is a second method for identifying photoengraving (type of printing used on Fro Joys) versus lithography or coputer printing (type of printing used to make reprints). Specifically, the dots in the half-tone are/were made differently and the photoengraving dot pattern is distinct and identifiable. However, I have not ever sat down and written an article/guide on that subject. At some point in the future I likely will, but it's not something I will tackle in the nearest future.

[Archive]

Posted By: TBob

and tell them they bought worthless copies, but with Christmas around the corner and the threat of being bounced from eBay for auction interference, I passed. I have always tried to protect the unwary, inncocent, unknowing and even the just plain dumb, but in the case of color Fro-Joys, I'll let them revel in their recently acquired "estate" finds and just hope the seller will get 10 negatives when the buyers find out, if they ever do.
Bah humbug!

[Archive]

Posted By: runscott

...are being purchased with intent to re-sell at flea markets,etc. That is what has happened with Feldman234's '33 Goudey Ruth reprints. Buyers know exactly what they are getting, but also know that they can scam someone else when they re-sell. Buying a known reprint for $100 isn't a bad deal if you can re-sell for $1,500.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

As for the unsuspecting buying them, it boils down to what they pay. If a buyer pays $10 or $20 or $30 it's not a big deal, as I suppose to some the reprints may be reasonably be worth $10 as a display piece.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

It makes me wonder how some of these sellers live with themselves. Honestly, I can't imaging that they are terribly happy people and hate to image what their personal relationships are like.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

Especially on eBay, I am a firm beleiver in contacting the seller and trying to get any questions cleared up before I bid-- whether it has to due with nature of the item or guarantee. And sometimes my question will be as simple as "Is this an original?"

[Archive]

Posted By: Rob M (ramram)

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ..................................Glad to see you're back!

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Posted By: Hankron

Okay, here's the deal on judging the authenticity of the Fro Joy Sheets. First, while the cards can be found with some regularity, the original sheets are very rare. So, when in doubt, odds say you probably have a reprint. The sheets were distributed with a photo of Babe Ruth and, I assume, a large mailing envelope. Not only would the combination help prove authenticity of the sheet, but you have a collection worth a lot of money. I would think in higher condition, the combo would be worth minimally $10,000.

The original Fro Joy sheets and single cards were made with a type of printing called photoengraving (a type of 'relief' printing). This now obsolete type of printing is identified with a microscope (such as the just described 75x power microscope). A wide variety of early baseball cards use this type of printing, and the hobbyist can practice looking at any of these items. This include the Sporting News and Sporting Life cards, Exhibit cards, and (if printed on glossy or super smooth paper)pictures in old magazines, Reach guides and such .... An in depth and highly illustrated discussion of what this type of 'relief' printing, and what early lithography looks has already been covered at http://www.cycleback.com/baseballcards/7.html

It has always been and always will be my strongest opinion that, if authentication is a serious concern, collectors and dealers should buy a good microscope and learn how to make good judgements on printing.

[Archive]

Posted By: RunScott

The seller knows they are reprints and the buyer either intends to resell to some idiot at a flea market (or antique mall), or the buyer is indeed an ebay moron who bright people like yourself cannot really expect to have the sense to do their own research.

David - I know you are a big proponent of buyers educating themselves. But you have to realize, some people are not smart enough to know they need to be educated, and others actually think they are safe buying on ebay, especially when the b*stards at ebay create cloaks that give a false sense of security to their buyer/victims - do these people deserve to be screwed by people more intelligent, but less scrupulous? Of course not - that's why we have fraud protection (to some extent) in some of our country's laws. But it is ultimately up to us as members of a decent society to help out the other members of our society and to indicate our disgust at the outliers who choose not to behave as healthy members - and that's partly what we are doing on this board.

Saying that these buyers deserve what they get, since they didn't educate themselves, is like getting mad at your local McDonald's burger flipper - if they could perform anything more than the most trivial of tasks perfectly, they would be elsewhere.


edited to correct typos

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

Scott, I agree with you, in the sense that it's not an either/or proposition. Yes, I am a proponant of buyers educating themselves (I take that radical stand). As with many on this board, I also regularly contact sellers and buyers when I see fakes or scams. Please note that I orignally contacted this particular seller about his reprints. Also, note that I regularly rail against eBay's protection of scammers and do report serious problems directly to eBay.

In the beginning and in the end, the only genuine and longlasting innoculation against buying fakes (or as few as is reasonably possible) is self-education and experience. As unfair or unfeeling or harsh as it may sound, there's no way it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

Seriously, Scott, I don't get mad when dumb people don't do their themselves. I get mad when smart people don't educate themselves.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hankron

Having thought about it, I get mad at dumb people who don't do any homework too.