Oldie but a Newbie - back collecting N172s

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Posted By: Joe Gonsowski

After a 12 year hiatus I'm back and astonished over the state of the market. These cards have really taken off, glad I got my foot in the door back before college made me a poor boy. I'd probably be too intimidated to start from scratch now.

I started when I was ~15 years old with a goal of obtaining all the Detroit Wolverine N172s. I was and still am particularly interested in the 1887 "0" numbered cards (0481 - 0508).

I hope a lot of my old trading friends are still out there, Bob Richardson? Paul Gigliotti? I also purchased items from Lew Lipset (of course), Kit Young, Barry Sloate, etc. They were all good sources for me at one time or another.

OK, what am I most surprised about?

1) Value of these cards. Certainly the best investment I made during the 80s and early 90s, and I recall many saying I should have started earlier because the prices were getting high (back then). This trend will make it more difficult to finish off my collection (yeah right, like I'll ever "finish"). Are the asking prices at Dave Levin's, Mike Wheat's, and other sites an accurate reflection of card value? Not that I'm singling anyone out, but I'm still in shock. I may have to consider more trading than buying.

2) Ned Hanlon!, what happened here? He used to be nearly a common, now he is priced higher than Dan Brouthers and Big Sam Thompson! I see he was elected into the HOF in '94 but still, more valuable than Brouthers & Thompson?, almost on par with King Kelly? Why has the market lifted his value so high?, his cards are not that hard to find (3 "0" numbered cards with Detroit all reissued with Pittsburgh). I’m going to have a hard time getting used to this (I still need two of his “0” cards, although I do have a nice N284 and cabinet of him).

3) eBay and the whole move to internet buying / selling. Quite different from the mail auctions and ritual scanning of SCD I was used to. Is SCD still a good source?

4) Scams, I acted like the newbie I am, and placed a bid on N300 Brouthers from bellyfly69. What a sad joke. I can’t afford to be naïve in this hobby.

5) Professional grading, is it standard to get all your premium cards graded? I'm considering sending some cards out but a 19th century card just doesn't look right in those dorky new holders. Can you get it professionally graded but have it returned as you sent it (ie not sealed)? Kind of defeats the purpose but at least you know what you have (an authentic card graded at xx). I’m certain my current collection is 100% authentic, but after reading many of these threads, I’m paranoid over my future acquisitions.

My apologies if this wasn't an appropriate post, I just found this board last night and I'm excited to be here. Looks like the 19th century collector has matured (ie you guys definitely have you sh#* together). I have a lot of reading / catching up to do.

Excellent forum, looking forward,
Joe Gonsowski
Westland, MI

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Posted By: Hankron

Concerning graded cards: as in high school and everywhere else in society, there is always peer pressure about how what and how you should collect. Many collectors are pressed to do things, because "everyone else is doing it." Some hobby conciets are practical and some shouldn't be taken as serious (though the collectively are!). Assuming a collector is intelegent, educated, thoughtful and aware (can differentiate between what is a practical rule and what is ephemeral, is aware of how a quality or action effects the current value), he should do what he thinks is right for his collection. In other words, you decision about whether or not to get your cards graded is your choice, and you should never feel unduly pressured by others, whether by the hobby as a whole or a small group.

Most eBay sellers are honest, but there are a few people who belong in jail. The quckest tips to identify auction should should not bid in.

1) Private auctions (where the bidders identities can't be seen). If the bidders identies can be see, they can be contacted and told that they are bidding on fakes. To counter this, scammers hide the identities.

2) Only bid in an auction where there is a legitimate guarantee of authenticity and return policy. Phrases like "All sales are final", "No returns" or "I'm not an expert, and won't guarantee authenticity" used in auctions no one should bid in. If the person doesn't have stated the authenticity and return guarantee, get it in writting (email will do). If she or he won't give you a guarantee you like, don't bid.

3) Ask questions to this board.

Thanks

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

As for Hanlon,expect to pay alot for his cards.At the national i saw a skinned example that was trimmed on all 4 sides so much that about half the card was left. The asking price,only $300.
Old Judge prices are high everywhere so its going to be hard to find any deals because theyre all bought up quick.Those dealers you mentioned arent any worse/better than most others but they do have some nice cards.
Ebay is usually the best bargains(if you can call them that)but like now for instance,theres not much available,especially since those 250 cards from jeffsjunque.The one thing about ebay,rare cards will go sky high.

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Posted By: julie

During the few years I was out ('88-91), I discovered that my favorite dealers mostly only held auctions, and I had to get back on their mailing lists for catalogues---Terry Knouse still sells only non-auction and almost only 19th century. His prices are very high--but you can pay him over the course of three years, while you keep the card! (tik@epix.net--or tik@epix.com).

Welcome back!


I found a Scrapps Hanlon (I've been collecting Scrapps for 15 years)--but my favorite Hanlon is the Fan Craze, 1906. Dressed in his best suit, eyebrows raised, and a supercillious smile. Also, it's a good time for a Hanlon--he being more famous for managing than playing.

Watch out for rebacked N172s--otherwise, they're as great as ever. But much more expensive.

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Posted By: Brian H.

Actaully from tracking and buying and selling OJs (and Mayos) I think that the retail sellers prices that were actually below market a year or so ago are again generally well over market. The dealers referenced all seem to have many of the same cards that they have been selling for a while. I do think that grading has effected the 19th century market. Suddenly the blank backs (and just how "blank" they are) have become more of a concern because the grading companies strongly consider them in grading. On the other hand, the grading companies (at least the better ones) are a boon in that they protect buyers from the treachery of re-colored Mayos and the like.

Also if you find Hanlon's price strange check out Bid McPhee who has gone from a common to one of the most expensive HOFers in the set (up there with Wright from what I have seen lately).

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Joe--Welcome to the Board. Old Judge is my area of specialization and I can see how your version of Rip Van Winkle offered up a few surprises. Bob Richardson is still around, although not very active in Old Judge any more. John Rumierz, who you probably also know, sets up at the National every year but is also relatively inactive. I don't know if you remember Keith Mitchell but he has sold off the Old Judge he had left and is concentrating on records. Frank Nagy, who was from your area and was out of Old Judge by the time I started corresponding with him, passed away a few years back.
I have plenty of Old Judge duplicates (although very few Detroit cards) that I could trade. I collect by pose so, as you might imagine, I need alot of cards. If you ever want to chat please email me at curl777@aol.com. Good luck and hopefully this time the disease will stick with you for a long while.

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Posted By: Joe Gonsowski

Wow, thanks Jay and all the others who have contacted me here and privately. I'm very excited to continue where I left off. Glad to hear Bob Richardson is still around, I wonder why he is inactive now? He was my favorite to deal with, very fair and accommodating. Many of the other collector names you mentioned sound familiar but I didn't directly deal with them.

I'm going to compose a detailed list of cards I need and have for trade in an upcoming web page for general consumption. BTW, what is the preferred way/medium to get the word out on your "want list"? I don't see any want lists posted here yet everyone seems to know what each other is looking for.



Post edited to eliminate want list---Elliot

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Posted By: Jay Miller

I didn't mean to imply that Bob Richardson had withdrawn from collecting Old Judge. I think he has made a conscious decision not to pay the types of prices that we see today.

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Posted By: Elliot

Welcome Back to the hobby. In order to keep want lists, etc. contained, we have agreed to keep buying and selling type posts limited to the "Buy/Sell/Trade thread. A new one is generally started at the beginning of each month and works similiar to a classified section in a newspaper. This enables people who wish to skip the thread to do so, and allows both the post and responses to remain contained to one thread.

Elliot