Legal assistance needed with PSA possibly

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Posted By: dan mckee

The last time I had trouble (with ebay) a very kind gentleman on this board helped me out a great deal. Well now, I may have serious trouble. $6000.00 worth of a possible loss!

On May 17th I mailed 2 submissions in the same package to PSA. The submissions were separated because 1 was a 5 day service and the other was a 30 day service. On May 22nd, I receive an email regarding the 1 submission. I immediately called and spoke to a gentleman that told me that the fellow that logs the 5 day submissions just hasn't logged it yet. I wait another day, call again. Same fellow answers and remembers me, says the guy is gone for the weekend and that it should be logged Tuesday. I call yesterday at the end of the day, still no email. A young lady answers and says all are logged immediately by the same person. She checks with the receiver and the receiver says only 1 submission was pulled from that package. I lost it! Thank god I restrained from foul language but $6K to me is an enormous amount of $$$$. She takes my heat and tells me not to worry, there are cameras behind each receiver and that the boxes are completely checked and flattened out. I can't imagine I was the first person to send 2 submissions in 1 package. I nice fellow (manager) called me back and asked for 2 days to research this, his name is Peter. I still have hope at this point though after a sleepless night last night, here are the possibilities going through my empty head:

The Card is there, just misplaced and sitting by a terminal (god I hope so!)
The receiver yanked the 25 card submission and discarded the box missing the single expensive card (this is usually my type of luck)
The receiver or someone else, helped themselves to the card ( I doubt this but it is a distinct possibility.

My email is r337man@yahoo.com, please write me directly if you can help or have suggestions. I cannot get to this board as often as I would like. Thank you, Dan.

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Posted By: JC

Sorry to hear that Dan. I don't like graded cards, but I realize it is neccessary to sell at higher values, in most cases. Please keep us informed how PSA handles the problem. I was considering submitting a 1000 cards for grading later this year.

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Posted By: MW

edited

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks JC and MW, I agree, I am not big on grading but when alot of the people buying the high dollar items are not knowlegable of what they are buying, I guess they are safer with it slabbed.

Yes MW, that is what scared me yesterday! The manager said he personnally trained each customer service person and this should have been a recognized problem right after the 1st submission's email came. The guy that answered all 3 of my calls last weekend, recognized me and told me so, I hope he tells the manager that and what he said to me. Maybe they tape for quality service? They do not know me, I am not a member so they are probably thinking: this chump is trying to stick us. I just left a message with the president and gave him a few decent references.

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Posted By: ...

edited as this was an anonymous post.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

I consider myself a bit of a purest and I don't buy slabbed cards, however I see the need for grading companies when it comes to selling high end material and for detecting altered and counterfeit cards. I sincerely hope that your card is recovered. I'm sure that if it's not, no matter what the reason, that you would have some legal options available to you. One of the main reasons I myself never shined on grading was the issue of sending stuff through the mail. I have always feared that I would not get my card or cards back. Anyway, it seems like PSA is trying to cover their butts and their at least trying to work with you which is more then what some companies will do when they've damaged or lost your merchandise. I hope you get your card back soon, keep us posted on what happens and good luck!

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Posted By: jay behrens

I would hope that you had this package insured, and if so, you shoudl have recourse for reimbursement that way if PSA can prove they don't have the card.

Jay

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Posted By: dan mckee

Gentlemen and ladies, maybe I misrepresented something here. The post office is completely out of the picture! The insrance on the package is no good at this point! Package was delivered and the 1 submission successfully removed from it, package was then broken down and recycled by PSA. If the package was damaged when it came in, then I would have thought PSA would have contacted me to check the contents. If I ever ship anything with no insurance and it doesn't arrive to its destination, then that is on me as the shipper. Whoever posted that I am scamming, get a life! This isn't funny at all.

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Posted By: leon

Not sure what your problem is with Dan but it is the boards policy not to allow anonymous attacks. If you care to make yourself known, and act in a civilized manner, then there is no problem. I hope when Elliot reads this he will delete your post. We have our disputes and arguments but they are not anonymous....thanks ....btw, I have never heard that about the person you have a problem with and would vouch for him in any way possible in any situation...

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Posted By: runscott

I would think that PSA (or any other recipient of goods) would first check the packing list (your list of submitted cards) to make sure that everything on the list was there, prior to tossing or recycling the packaging. They have to be aware of how insurance works.

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Posted By: Anonymous

unfortunately, there were 2 different packing lists for 2 different services. 1 for a 5 day service (My expensive card) and the other, a group of 25 T206's. I am thinking they grabbed the group and possibly chucked the box. You can't put 2 different services on 1 submission so I sent 2 submissions. They are saying no way. Well then that leaves misplaced or stolen, bottomline. I am being told "This can't happen" and "This doesn't happen" well it did happen!!

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Posted By: B C Daniels

For the E-92 Matty. This situation has occured before with PSA. It sucks. In the end they skirt unless you apply preasure.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks B man, I love the way you signed your email! chat board something delux! That was funny. The unsigned post above Brian is me, sorry, i thought I signed in.

PSA has told me that this hasn't happened in the 12 years they have been in business! If anyone has any specifics of a similar incident with any value cards, PLEASE let me know. Thanks for all of the emails and concern I have received. I appreciate it. Dan

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Brian---If I were you I would request a copy of the tape of your package being opened. If this is not available then it comes down to your word against theirs which is not a particularily strong position for you. Good Luck!

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Posted By: dan mckee

Hi Jay, It is dan, not Brian with the problem. I have already requested that from the beginning but keep getting blown off. I am hearing legally that I am screwed and am not taking it well at all. I mailed them my items expecting them to professionally handle them. If I take this $6K hit, I am not sure what I will do.

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Posted By: Jay Miller

Sorry Dan. Just a case of brain lock. Your situation points out the weak link in the mail submission of cards for grading. You are covered when the item is mailed via postal insurance. You are covered once the item is entered into the grading company's computer and you can see the entry on their web site. In the interim there is this little void where you have no proof as to where your item is. Even if you had only one item in your box I would be surprised (if it was high value and if it was lost/stolen) if the video tape would be available.

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Posted By: runscott

I am inclined never to submit cards again unless this loophole can be shut. Has anyone else ever had a grading company lose their card?

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Posted By: Anonymous

I can guarantee you that I will never do it again! I am just praying they are honest enough to recognize this and do something for me. I already see my other submission that was the 6 week service has been shipped today after just 1 week! Very little retribution in my book and not good enough! Joe the president seems like a decent Joe so I am hoping to be compensated. I have the emails showing the total I had it sold for, hell, at this point, I will just take what I have in it back! Best case scenerio is that it is located (notice I am no longer saying found!) I don't believe that it was lost.

Jay, you are correct! a major loophole that I had no idea existed and that there is NO PROTECTION from obviously! Peter at PSA kept suggesting that I never sent it but I ABSOLUTELY sent it! Instead of coming up with bullcrap reasons where or why I couldn't have sent it, they should be looking at what possibly happened to it at their end! Sorry, I am rambling but this really hurts the wallet!

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Posted By: dan mckee

THAT LAST POST IS ME AGAIN, NOT SURE WHY IT ISN'T PICKING UP MY SIGN IN TIL AFTER THE FACT. MY BUST.

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Posted By: Marc S.

""I am inclined never to submit cards again unless this loophole can be shut. Has anyone else ever had a grading company lose their card? ""


Well -- I agree that you seem to have been screwed, and this is a very unfortunate situation.

The potential solution in the future is to send your submissions separately. Do not combine submissions in one package unless each submission is over some critical mass of cards (e.g. 20 or 100+ each).

I wonder if you would have a claim against the USPS at all...? You sent a package, insured for $6,000 or whatever -- but what arrived at the final destination was a package only valued at $400 or so. Doesn't seem morally right to go against the USPS, though.

Whenever I have sent a small submission as part of a larger package -- I always include it in a large box, with the smaller submission marked "5-day" or whatever.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Hi Marc, Unfortunately I rarely submit cards to grading and didn't know any better. I should have video taped me packing the box and sealing it with 5 witnessess. It is unbelievably rediculous to have to go through all of that. If the grading service isn't covering themselves at their end for this, then they should have some kind of in house insurance or something. As the customer, I shouldn't have to worry about this. The post office is completely out of the game here. The package was delivered and not damaged, their job was fullfilled. PSA called me last night at my job and cell at 8:20 pm so I missed them. I will call back today for the final decision. Over a week of not sleeping and eating properly and I have done nothing wrong! It just isn't right. Dan.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Peter at PSA just called. He states that their investigation shows that the card was never there and that I am out $6K. He didn't come out and say this but obviously they consider me a liar. There is NO FILM of the packages being opened but they are convinced that the 3 people opening the hundreds of packages that day did not miss it or take it. He stated they have insurance for lost cards but feel this one was never there! They have paid out on lost cards after they have been entered into the system and then lost. This grey area between the package being opened and the submission being entered is a DANGER to all! I hope my very expensive lesson helps to teach several people. I have found an attorney to help, that is my next step, then watch for my MANY articles in the respective trade magazines bashing this pathetic customer service!

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Posted By: Todd (nolemmings)

Truly sorry about your nightmarish experience. Could you post a scan of the card in question so we can keep our eyes open in the event it "surfaces"?
regards..............Todd

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Posted By: Anonymous

Great idea Todd! I hope none of you have to deal with Peter! He had me flagged a liar and thief from the beginning!

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Posted By: mrc32

No offense but I would never ever ever send a $6,000 card in the mail. Why in the world wouldn't you take it there in person or wait to submit it at a show when PSA or SGC were there?

Seems like common sense to me. But it is to bad. I hope you can come up with a solution.

Nice card.

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Posted By: Hankron

I assume that if it was stolen that it will show up on the market sooner or later. I've saved your image for refrence and will keep my eyes open.

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Posted By: Brian C Daniels

Plus PSA should flag any Cobb card ( I think it was a Cobb ) that comes their way similiar to the one in question. (provided they do not already have it or tossed it in the trash of course). TBob-chime in with legal advise!

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Posted By: Anonymous

Obviously you are correct and my common sense was missing! I had the card sold upon it being graded and didn't want to wait for the national in July. I guess my haste or whatever cost me dearly! You are correct though, I had always submitted expensive cards in person. PLEASE LEARN from my mistake! PSA is either negligent or dirty! Either way, it would have been a nat to them to cover this on their insurance, meanwhile it has drastically affected my family!! Shame on them!

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Posted By: botn

Dan,

I was under the impression that PSA has cameras everywhere. I am not sure if all cameras have video surveillance and for what period of time that footage is available for viewing. What would be the point of having cameras in only one part of the grading process? Makes no sense.

Based on what you are reporting from Peter, the customer is completely vulnerable from the time that the package is given to the employee(s) to enter into the system. It is not until PSA posts grades that you know that they have accounted for the same number of cards and the specific cards that you had submitted. So if there is a breach in security or someone inadvertently disposes of a card while emptying a customer's package the customer will not know until the day grades are posted, which can be up to 30 days depending on the service.

On several occasions I have had PSA call me when I have come up with an incorrect total. i.e. I write that there are 42 total cards and they count 43. It makes you wonder what they do if they find a discrepancy. You write down 1952 Topps Mantle and the card is a 1952 Topps common. I am not sure how much hobby knowledge the employees have that enter the info into the computer.

PSA should make the details of the submission available online with e-mail notification as soon the cards are received and entered into the system.

My suggestion is to contact Charlie Kahler. Charlie if you do not know him is an incredible man. He used to be in charge of Customer Service and is now the head of Special Projects. This is really not his field anymore but I can guarantee you that he will do whatever he can to get to the bottom of this.

Please keep us posted on what happens.

Greg

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Posted By: botn

You may find this link to the PSA site interesting. It is a little vague.
http://www.psacard.com/grading/grading_process.chtml

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Posted By: Anonymous

Hi Greg! thanks for the input. actually, PSA does send an email as soon as the submission is logged. this is when I noticed I was missing a submission and I called immediately! Where does Charlie work? I am very desperate and will gladly accept any help! If he works at PSA he probably won't help me, I was told by Peter that Peter himself, and all of the executives agree that the card was never there, in other words, they all agree that I am a blatent LIAR and that there is no way their employees opening hundreds of packages could have made a mistake or taken anything. dan.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Thanks for this link! I didn't see this one and my lawyer needs it!! I really appreciate this, you are all the greatest collecting buds I could have. Thanks for helping me through this nightmare! dan.

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Posted By: Tim Newcomb

Many, perhaps most, of us have dealt with Dan and know he's a straight shooter. I'm perfectly certain that if Dan says he mailed the card, then PSA either lost it or allowed it to be stolen.

After hearing this story, I for one would not submit ANYTHING to PSA until/unless they deal more reasonably with Dan's problem. I will be happy to tell them this. Unfortunately since I have very seldom dealt with them anyway, my "boycott" will not mean much to them by itself. But if, say, two dozen of us wrote in to object to their handling of the missing Magie, it might make some difference.

I urge everyone who feels similarly to make their feelings known to PSA as soon as possible-- not just to help Dan but to help protect anyone who submits cards in good faith to be graded by this (apparently) soulless corporation.

Tim

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Posted By: MW

edited

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Posted By: MW

I should mention that Steve Rocchi was PSA's President at the time. Currently, Joe Orlando holds that position.

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Posted By: Botn

Dan

I know that PSA sends an e-mail once they receive the submission but you are not able to view what it is that they have logged in as far as contents of the submission. In your particular case the submission consisted of just one card so it was easy to tell that something was wrong.

Charlie Kahler works for PSA and I have found him to be extremely concerned with customer satisfaction. I have always known him to go the extra mile. I know of a Peter that works at PSA and he is in Customer Service. Your situation needs to be addressed directly by someone at a higher level. If this is not in Charlie's area any longer then he will tell you who to see. Just tell him that Greg Schwartz suggested that you contact him.

If this turns out to be an error on PSA's part they will make it right. It is not worth the money invloved, although material, to suffer bad PR over a situation like this. If I were you I would demand to have the situation explained to me directly from someone with authority.

Greg

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Posted By: MW

Greg has a good idea. I would take your complaint to either Charlie Kahler or Joe Orlando.

Charlie Kahler -- 800-325-1121 ext. 141 (email: KahlerC@collectors.com)

Joe Orlando -- 800-325-1121 ext. 170 (email: OrlandoJ@collectors.com)

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Dan,
Once again let me tell you how sorry I am to hear of this unfortunate chain of events. Like David stated earlier in the thread, I think we should all keep an eye out for your card, because if it was stolen, it WILL come up for sale somewhere. Most theft of this kind is done by morons who don't really know what they have, other then the fact that it's old, it's baseball and that they could make a fast few bucks off it. Having worked for the USPS I can tell you that despite their extremely strict policies, theft does occasionally occur, especially at the larger distribution facilities. If PSA is willing to stand by their story that the card never arrived, (you or your attorney should get that in writing), and the package was in fact insured through the USPS, then you should be able to recover your loss with the postal insurance, providing that you purchased the right amount of coverage of course. If in fact PSA does stand by their version that the card was never physically in their possesion, and whether or not you are able to recover your $6K from the postal insurance, I would definitly contact the USPS Inspection service and make a request for an investigation. I have used them on ebay sellers who have taken my money and kept my item and let me tell you, the inspection service doesn't play games. I had them go after a guy who sold me a book on ebay after he ripped me off for my 14.00 payment! I got my book in less then 30 days after I requested an investigation. They went after the guy like pirhanas and I would think that they would be all to eager to take on a case like yours. This is of course just a suggestion and I sincerely hope that everything works out for you. Good Luck

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

Just one quick thing to add,

PSA may have NO FILM, But since the USPS trusts no one around the mail, even their own employees, the cameras at their facilities are always on.

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Posted By: MW

Quote from Dan:

The post office is completely out of the game here. The package was delivered and not damaged, their job was fullfilled.


Given this situation, and the fact that one usually notices if a sealed package has been opened during delivery, I think it would be extremely difficult to file a legitimate claim with the USPS.

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Posted By: dan mckee

I do appreciate any possible avenues but can tell you that w/o the damaged box in hand, the post office is free and clear. Also, I have already contacted Joe Orlando directly so I believe my options are shot at PSA. It would be great if Charlie would still be interested and the PR they are going to get from me writing in trade magazines should be a thorn in their side. Dad has been doing this with me for 34 years and our combined reputation should make a difference, at least amongst the people that know us. Joe Orlando did sound concerned and compassionate but then had that stone personality that already had me as a liar call back for the final decision. So at this point, PSA has not made it right and have no intentions of making it right and I have no respect for Joe or Peter.


The fact that there is a gap for this to happen and that they do not have that covered, should have been enough for the insurance route. Peter said "We are not just going to cut a $6000 check" Well, that wouldn't have been necessary, I have the original emails containing the amount that I had it sold for and after all of this rediculous stress, I would have been satisfied for receiving what it cost me. I may have even worked out in free grades, I have 775 more T206s I was going to have slabbed.

But no negotiation, no I am sorry for your loss, no nothing! just that "we are firm on the fact that it was never here"



For me to devise this as they are suggesting, I would have needed to know there receiving process wasn't filmed, or that the boxes weren't opened with a supervisor watching to log the submissions. I had no idea of their setup or process. And if someone offered me $6000 to go through this hell I have been through the last 2 weeks, I would tell them they are crazy!

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Posted By: runscott

I'm sure you can put something together that would be very informative/helpful to other collectors (as this thread has been) - if you need help with editing for publication let me know.

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Posted By: Adam J. Baxter

In retrospect, I do have to agree that blaming the USPS may be premature, However, if PSA is adamant that they never had the card and Dan is sure he sent it, then the USPS or one of their employees must be looked at if for no other reason then to rule them out. So far as to whether or not a package can be tampered with and go undetected, it can happen. Not often, but it is possible. One of the ways it could be done, under the radar, so to speak, Is if a mail handler finds the package in a distribution bin and seeing that it's headed for PSA, they could remove the package from the bin and bring it to the area where they examine AIRMAIL packages. In this area all AIRMAIL packages with improper or missing content tags are often carefully opened and examined for dangerous articles and then resealed. The USPS has been doing this regularly since 9/11. Damaged parcels are also repackaged either in these areas or close to them.

The scenario could work like this:

A mail handler by himself or with an accomplice could remove a PSA bound package from a bin, bring it to a repacking area as if it where a damaged package, then without doing anything blatantly obvious that would call attention to themselves by a floor supervisor, they could cut open the package with a boxcutter, remove the desired item, carefully remove the old tape, then carefully retape the box and then place back into a parcel bin. Then if the package arrived at PSA among the hundreds of others, the repackaged parcel could go unnoticed at a glance. Any mail handler could do this with any type of package (Priority, etc.) that comes in to a main distribution facility. The only type of package that would prove difficult is registered mail and I think Express, as they come through in locked fabric bags and are generally handled by special personnel. Keep in mind that if this does turn out to be the case, then chances are the guilty parties have done it more then once. I have actually heard stories of mail handlers and clerks at the South Postal Annex (a main distribution facility in South Boston, MA) going into the employees bathrooms during breaks and opening Christmas cards in the search for cash. This was a real problem for a time and the USPS put a stop to it. I'm not suggesting that the USPS condones this behavior, nor am I suggesting that it's rampant. It's just that it is possible. No security is 100% fool proof and people are people. I'm inclined to believe that the truth of where this card went lies somewhere between the USPS and PSA. I think that Dan is taking the right approach by contacting PSA, retaining legal representation, if needed, and asking for advice. This way every explanation can be examined and PSA and the USPS can be given a chance to say there piece and do there own investigating. I do agree with other members of the board that unless PSA can tie up this loophole, then submissions should be reconsidered by collectors. At least until PSA comments on this issue publicly. If they film the packages being opened and state that fact, then I fail to understand how they can tell Dan that there is no film. In my opinion, either they film these packages being opened or they don't. It should be either or, it can't be somewhere in-between, otherwise customer confidence is compromised. Anyway thats just my lengthy opinion.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Yes Scott! I believe I will need these proofread as I am in no way sure of what i can or can't say, plus my writing is horrific! Thanks for your time on this, I submitted 1 article to VCBC which will hopefully be in the next issue explaining the 4 variations of the 1938 Goudey Lombardi low number. Dan.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Scott, can you email me at r337man@yahoo.com thanks, dan.

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Posted By: BcD

Can't taz go over there and do his thing? Taz and Coutore both seem to get results!

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Posted By: carlacardman

This post was deleted due to it's anonymous nature. Basically the poster called the originator of this post a liar (easy to do, if anonymous). The person also didn't know how to spell the name of the card in question, and stated that a $6,000 loss was not so great.

Elliot






Elliot

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Posted By: david

i completely believe this story. the reason why there have not been other high profile thefts is because most people who submit cards of the value do it in person. also, as psa has expanded over the years their quality control has been non existent. and with their expansion i am sure that they are hiring people without complete background checks and that this probably happens more then the hobby hears about

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Posted By: botn

David

I live in Los Angeles and I am a Authorized Dealer for PSA yet most of my cards are submitted through the mail. It is ludicrous to imply that Collectors Universe is only honest when we witness them taking the cards from us. This is a multi-million dollar company that has every intention of continuing their operations.

Many criticisms will be made of PSA but yours is certainly not one of them.

As far as Dan's situation, I would still like to hear exactly what Charlie or Joe have to say before I draw any conclusions.

Greg

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Posted By: runscott

The only question is "where is the card?" and how did it slip through PSA's fingers?

I agree with Greg's defense of PSA as a multi-million dollar company that does not want cards disappearing, but I also think that if they determined that the card was lost or stolen due to their own inept control methods, that there is a good chance they would still proceed the way they have with Dan (cover-up or ignore).

Perhaps $6K isn't a "high dollar" card to many of you, but it is to Dan and it would be to a large number of PSA's customers - I also think that it will be even more disturbing to PSA customers if it can't be determined what happened to the card, so that it can be avoided in the future. Was it stolen by an employee who simply found an "opportunity"? ...or perhaps a disgruntled employee? Was the video-taping mechanism turned off when Dan's package was opened? ...or the camera blocked by an employee's back?

So how would you expect PSA to respond to a situation like this? Look at their response to the most recent scandal they were involved in and you might find your answer. Oh, and certainly this same situation could occur at SGC, but just like the last scandal, we're still dealing with PSA here.