SGC grading questionable material??

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Posted By: rhaynes

Check out

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dllViewItem&item=1860572507

it appears as if SGC as "taken a page" from
AAA/Pro grading...

Comments?

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Posted By: rhaynes

sorry about that... just copy and paste the item
number if interested.

Thanks,
R Haynes

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Posted By: B Hodes

My understanding -- please correct me if I am wrong -- is that SGC does grade authorized cards that were meant to be cut out such as 1920's strip cards (and other "W" cards), Sports Illustrated for Kids cards like that overpriced Tiger Woods 'rookie', and the dell cards that came in albums that were meant to be cut out in that they were preforated or at least had dotted lines separating the cards from one another.

While these "dell cards" may be superfiscially similar to what NASA/AAA encapsulate, I think that after you give it some thought you will see that this is a far cry from what AAA/NASA does grading pictures cut out of publications that were not intended to be cards (I also note that these photos were never authorized by the subjects to be cards but are rather simply photos or other images used for journalistic purposes).

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Posted By: David

The Dell stamps were issued in sheets. If I am correct, each stamp was seperated by perforations as it was the intent of the issuer that the kid (or adult, as the case may be)separate them into singles. As such, I do not see an issue here, in particular in light that PSA grades those SI Tiger Woods cards.

If your argument is that the SGC label should be more detailed (ala 'Dell Booklet Stamps') I will go along with you on that. However, they are checklisted and detailed in both the Beckett & SCD annuals, either copy which I (and most board members) always recommend a beginning collector to get.

The Dell Stamps likely have little value or hobby respect, but that's a different issue.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Big difference here, these are basically like strip cards and were meant to cut apart. Not that agree with grading strip cards or other items higher than VG that have been cut from the strip or sheet they were originally issued on.

Jay

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

If these cards are perfed, there is a huge difference between that and a simple dotted line that's meant to be cut along.

PSA will also grade stuff that is perfed. They will not grade it if the perfs have been cut apart, only if they have been ripped.

bruce

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I bought 15-20 of them 10-15 years ago. They were all from the All Star part of the set, and all had been beautifully LAMINATED, with 1/2 inch curved borders around each "card."I remember Mark Macrae telling me not to buy them; they were worthless, but I thought they were pretty, and strong and slender enough so you could play cards with them if they had been a card set. Kit Young sold a bunch a few months back. For dollars, not cents. He said they sold very well. The lamination looks so professional that I keep wondering if the Dell company did it, or, if not, wonder who did? l971, so you have a young Reggie Jackson, Seaver, Rose, Clemente, Mays, Ryan, etc. My guess is they are not perferated, but occasionally, you can see a dotted line if you're looking for it.

Don't remember what I paid for them; it wasn't much, but certainly more than the stamps alone are worth.

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Posted By: Ronald Haynes

I guess my message title was incorrect.
I do own the references mentioned by David and
can see that the material is Legit, in that
it was produced to be collected like a card.
My big issue is if the cards were perforated,
meant to be "ripped" apart, then isn't cutting
them (to obtain a high grade ... as the seller mentions) a little suspect?

Cheers:)
R Haynes

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Posted By: David

I agree that for the highest grade the perforations should be intact. If the perforations were completely cut off, I would consider the stamp trimmed.

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Posted By: David

I'm not passing judgement at this moment on SGC, as I've never seen in person a 71 Dell Stamp and don't know the exact nature of the performations. On the 60s Topps and Bazooka stamps, the perforations are as bold as the spines on on the back of a Dinosauer. It appears the Dell perforations are more subtle, like a line of ants at a picnic. Either way, I beleive the perforations are best left in tack, at least as long as they keep away from potato salad.

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Posted By: runscott

The pictures DO NOT have perforations or dotted lines and were not intended to be cards. They are all simply printed on the front of a fold-out insert and contain "in action" photos on the back that in no way line up with the photos on the front. No, they aren't stamps.

They are almost the same as the magazine cut-outs that AAA sells.

I don't mind passing judgement on SGC for grading these - it's pathetic.

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Posted By: David

Looks like Scott answered that question for us. I'll bet you $2 (that's a lot of money for me, half my allowance) that these items will appear, or have already, on SAH.

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Posted By: Elliot

Scott....what do you mean "almost the same as AAA" ...it sounds exactly the same. It's horrible that SGC is grading these cutouts. They worry about their credibility if they were to grade certain cards as authentic, BUT they have NO problem doing this. I can't understand the thinking.

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Posted By: petecld

I wouldn't lump the Dell products with "AAA/NASA" junk.

I can't say anything about the Football but I did own the Baseball version many moons ago and I remember them as being physically preforated as David described (micro-fine) and not just with printed dotted ines, had glue on the surface of the backs as stamps do and I believe even had the players name and "stamp" number on the backs but don't hold me to that last part.

PSA and SGC will grade the 1961 Golden Press cards and PSA is known for grading the SI inserts so I don't see a big issue with SGC grading the Dell products.

Now about those Wagner reprints in SGC holders. . .

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Posted By: runscott

I own the "All Star" baseball version as well, and it contains actual stamps, unlike the football item.

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Posted By: runscott

If I sliced up the entire poster and submitted each picture to SGC for grading, could I then get my beautiful Dell 1971-72 "football card set" registered? There are only 48 "cards", but most are HOF'ers.

But being the nice guy that I am, I could let go of this entire set, already contained in a beautiful 1971-72 Dell album known as a "magazine", for a fraction of it's true worth.

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Posted By: petecld

Are there football stamps issued the exact same way as the Baseball ones? I've never seen the item you posted before. Is it an album or a magazine? Is what you're pointing out a promotional centerfold using the same art used for the stamps?

Unless I'm missing something I think you're trying to make your point comparing apples to oranges.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I mean the pictures themselves.

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Posted By: runscott

What I have pictured is exactly what this guy is selling - poster cut-outs.

Ask him for a scan of the backs, as I did, and hopefully then you will be able to accept the unpleasant facts that I have offered in this thread. Seriously folks, I didn't doctor the image I posted and SGC IS my preferred grading company, so I have no reason to lie about this.

Both the baseball stamps and the football poster came in album/magazine/book/guide/whatever that look similar on the outside. I personally would call it a football guide - it contains team rosters, schedules, player bios, etc. It's not an album in that there is no place to cut up the poster and paste the pieces, sorry - I meant "cards".

Again, I got a scan of the back from the seller, and it's partial "in action" photos as I showed in the posted image.

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Posted By: runscott

When I was a kid I bought the Dell Baseball all-star "album" and thought it was really cool. I was very disappointed in the football thing because the pictures were not "stamps" like the baseball album. I only bought it because it had a bunch of pictures of the Dallas Cowboys players.

It is really beyond me why it is so difficult for people to accept the fact that SGC is grading a cut-up poster. What's more difficult for me to understand is why they won't grade real baseball cards that are hand-cut from sheets.

Since SGC has now ventured into AAA territory, what's to keep them from grading other posters that have player images on one side? I have a Cap Anson image that was cut off a poster - shouldn't they grade that?

And to stretch it further, since they will grade the Allegheny single set of cards, what if I personally drew a bunch of baseball players on a sheet of paper and then cut them out - shouldn't that warrant grading?