Can the little guys ever win in Mastro?

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Posted By: TBob

I remember there was a time when the "good old boy (sorry Julie) collectors" among us could grab a really nice lot on Oser, Edwards or Mastro auctions but it seems lately that the guys with storerooms of Kalamazoo bats and more money than they know what to do with are getting whatever they want. Yeah, maybe just a tad jealous, after all some of us have kids in college and mortgage payments, but I remember the days when grabbing a nice lot of caramel card HOFers was a possibility.

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Posted By: David

Bob,

I have found good deals in most MastroNet auctions-- they are not common but are sprinkled throughout. Most of the heated bidding appears to be with baseball cards, the earlier the cards the more heated, which is an area in which I do not buy. There are usually misclanious group and bulk lots and sometimes out of the ordinary single-item lots that have good prices. I'm a bargain hunter and enjoy obtaining items via group lots that I would not have ordinarilly bought .... I don't want to get anyone's hopes up, but on occasion the large misclaneous group lots have contained more than was described in the catalog.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

I never saw so many crows' feet on a kid in my life! 1912? He looks 40.

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Posted By: Tom L.

Bob,

I picked up a PSA-5 T212 Obak Weaver (undergraded by PSA and the nicest Kevin Struss had seen) for just over 1K in a Mastro auction last fall. I've seen ungraded VG, possibly GD, examples go for over $600 on EBay. I thought the Mastro Weaver was a steal.

The stuff that I think tends to go out of control are the unique 19th century pieces, both memorabilia and cards. All of the 1890s Baltimore memorabilia from the Bosley collection went for 2-5x more than anyone expected (some more than 10x their low minimum bids). I thought I could pick up a couple of pieces, but in the end I couldn't even afford a single item in that group.

But I think early 20th cards can still occasionally be had at reasonable prices.

Take care,
Tom

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Posted By: David

Julie, I'm not big on the Black Sox, but if the price stayed resonable I was thinking of placing a bid.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

bob, if you could get YOUR majority in the senate to pass a few more stringent tax laws on us 1%ers maybe it would impede our bidding, or better yet impose a vintage baseball tax! kinda like the current idiotic tax brackets and capital gains, the more you got, the more you gotta pay, how's that for fair. it's called double dipping or in yonder world wealth redistribution, WOW!! thats it, baseball card redistribution. now all the heavy hitters (read: movers and shakers and entrepeneurs who choose to collect small pieces of cardboard) are gonna be required to give the economically challenged collectors some of their cards each april 15th.

can't wait to hear leon chime in on this one.

scott

hope you take this all in light, but it reflects on our current tax system in baseball card terms.

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Posted By: runscott

Go ahead and mail your Ramley Reulbach to me and i'll let the IRS know you've paid.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: scott brockelman

my next quarterly subsidy is not due til sept 15th. at that time i will have to ante up, but as the system requires, i will send it to a third party for them to "stomp" on it and get their share and dilute it a bit to make it go even further. imagine getting a percentage of the card sent to the clearing house, when they told you they were going to change your collection and bring it up to minimum standards, but again it's just a bit "short".

scott

i'm starting to feel like MW or koos with this thread.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

is tht the rich are rich and the poor are poor.

And, by the way, Friends don't let Friends....Vote Republican (and in the case of the California governor's race, democratic, either).

No WONDER you didn't answer my e-mail...

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Posted By: B. Hodes

One way is for the little guys to become aware of the fact that they are being alienated from the cards they want and then to organize themsleves (with the help of the intellectual vanguard) and unite under a common banner and ... bid as one for the lots they want.

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Posted By: Tom

as someone who's won stuff in Mastronet auctions and Oser auctions from WAAAAYYY back, I agree somewhat with the contentions that their lotting pushes out the little guy. Also speaking as someone who has lots in this current auction, I hope the BIG guys are bidding fast and furious!

There are ways to get with other collectors to purchase larger lots and split them and/or sell off 1/2 of a lot on ebay or other avenues that will still allow people to go after items in their auctions. That said, it's not always feasible geographically to figure that kind of logistics out.

Their fiduciary responsibility is to try to marry up buyers and sellers where they maximize the sellers value while providing the buyers the best quality material. Which they do. Unfortunately, when many lots are of the 300 Old Judges size or 123 W600's (okay, shameless plug), it narrows the scope of the bidders who can bid on the auctions.

Answer........none. If people aren't happy with Mastronet, they should contact them. Speaking with Doug Allen and hearing Bill Mastro talk about it, we gotta realize those inch thick catalogs mailed to 7-10,000 people aren't free. They spend over $100K on printing and shipping I'm sure (Granted they're now charging people who don't bid/win for the catalogs). Doug's always been willing to listen..........

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Posted By: TBob

A luxury tax on any collector who has any of the following cards in his collection:

1) Kalamazoo Bats
2) More than 50 Old Judges
3) 5 of the "Big 6" T206s
4) More than 3 E94 overprints
5) Any PSA 8 or 9 of any vintage card

Couldn't resist.
By the way Scott, the economy has REALLY come around during the first years of the Bush administration. Maybe he will decide to nuke Iraq to keep the voters from discovering that Brother Jim was right all along, "it's the economy, stupid." If not for the tragedy of 9-11, Bush's approval rating would be the same as Bud Selig's in Minneapolis.

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

..has to get DIRTY,...but, you can make everything dirty without EVER making everything CLEAN!!! Same thing with MONEY. For someone to get rich, someone has to get poor! Personally, I've never won ANYTHING in a Mastronet Auction. Of course, the fact that I've never placed a bid in one might have something to do with that!

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Posted By: runscott

"The pie can't get bigger". I won't touch the topic of "who makes the pie get bigger", but we know who doesn't.


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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: leon

That's it. Let me work harder so I can support folks who don't want to get out of bed and work. Yeah, we have silver spoons in our mouths, except mine got taken by the govt., to give to some govt program to help those who won't help themselves. I was homeless and walking the streets 15 years ago but still didn't go to the social welfare agencies because it wasn't societies fault it was MINE. Get it..if we take responsibility for ourselves then we wouldn't need 95%of the welfare crap. Damn Democrats. Nuff said......regards all....(yeah, it's all Bush's fault ....right )

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...and that damned pie will get as big as a house! Wasn't it Archimedes that said, "Give me an oven large enough and I can bake the world", or was that Donald Sutherland in "Backdraft"?

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

...drag their butts into the gym, move insane amounts of iron like some crazed, maddened beast, eat like a shark with the munchies, and become brick-hard (the head too!), BIG-little guys. Then a serious offensive can be mounted against the LITTLE big-guys.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Next Question.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

the economy was squashed by 2 factors, alan greenspan not realizing that his slowing down of "irrational exuberance" was totally incorrect and should not have happened in a free market system even from the FED, and the demise of tech companies that were hiring thousands of people to do hundreds of peoples jobs, they just did not have a business plan or foresight.


George W. Bush, had nothing to do with neither. and whether 9-11 had happened or not he is still a man with conviction for lower taxes on the "WORKING" people and focus on the future for the really working people!.

IF YOU THINK BUSH IS BAD YOU WOULD NOT WANT ME THERE!

NO SOCIAL SECURITY ! I WOULD FORFEIT ALL MINE TOMORROW JUST TO NOT PAY ANYMORE. GEE! I CAN SUPPORT MYSELF!

NO WELFARE OR UNEMPLOYMENT! EITHER WORK OR STARVE! AMAZING WHAT A PERSON CAN DO WHEN FORCED INTO A CORNER. THEY REACT!
NITSCHKE WAS RIGHT "WHATEVER DOES NOT KILL YOU, WILL MAKE YOU STONGER"

NO CAPITAL GAINS TAX! TAX ME ONCE ON WHAT I MAKE AND LEAVE ME ALONE.

NO MEDICARE, MEDICAID, ETC.

NO FARM SUBSIDIES, (i grew up on a farm) THE BIGGEST RECIPIENTS OF FARM SUBSIDIES ARE WEALTHY INDIVIDUALS AND CORPORATE FACTIONS, NOT THE AVERAGE 600 ACRE FARMER.

McDonalds is hiring all the time and so are 100 other national chains even in this supposed down turn of the economy, which is a pure fictional lie if you look at the underlying data, my business(which i started from scratch, has grown every year from my hard work, not a govt subsidy). the bottom line is many people have become dependent on the government to provide for them because they are to lazy to do it themselves.

COMMON SENSE SHOULD LET EVERY PERSON WORK AND EARN AND SPEND ON THEIR OWN ABILITIES. WHY SHOULD ANY GOVT. ENTITY CONTROL YOU BASEBALL CARD SPENDING? BUT THEY DO. WITH THE MONEY I PAID TO UNCLE "SHAM"(which is the correct term) LAST YEAR I COULD HAVE BOUGHT A WHOLE LOT MORE CARDS.

SCOTT

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

...

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Posted By: jay behrens

is pretty filling and high in fibre, but you usually don't get much of it in a salad, so it's pretty hard to live on just that.

Jay

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Posted By: leon

ROLMFAO That was great.....I like Wendy's personally...regards

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

that the political argument was really stupid, because it would never be resolved.

Repeat: Ever try living on a McDonald's SALERY?

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Posted By: runscott

She rarely had a dime to do anything fun, but I never saw her sitting by an overpass with her hands out. I checked on her 3 months later and she was their marketing rep for the Denver area. Time for her to start returning her money to those who sit under the overpasses.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: leon

I know a friend that started off flipping burgers at McDonalds, probably making $5.50 an hour. He busted his a** and in 3 years was a general manager making 70+k (12 years ago) + benefits. Although I am a Republican by mentality I do have a few liberal thoughts you would be proud of. I don't care what a person's sexual persuasion is.....why should it matter to me?...although in the same breath I will say I don't want it taught to my child If she grows up and wants to be whatever then that is her business and I will still love her all the same......I also teach a life skills class, every Tuesday, at the Salvation Army, for homeless veterans....my basic theme is get off your a** and get a job, quit making the same mistakes over and over, and take accountability for your situation...of course all done in a constructive way....now back to our vintage gems......take care and as always best regards

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Posted By: runscott

...but that doesn't make it stupid. As long as one of our major parties can stay in existence by promising to take from those who work and give to those who don't, the problem will always exist...well, until there are not enough working stiffs to support those who don't work. That would be called the erosion of the middle class, which, BTW, is already in full swing.

And I also have plenty of Liberal ideas, but sitting on my butt and waiting for welfare checks is not one of them. Also, like Leon, I have been out of work at various points in my life. I took part-time work hanging sheet-rock at minimum wage, and at another time carrying boxes for moving companies. And no, I never developed sudden back problems and screamed "workman's comp!". I also have never had the pleasure of using a $20 food stamp to buy candy bars and Pepsi, then using the change to buy lottery tickets, but I HAVE seen it done. I also had a very large (muscles) man ask me for money yesterday. I have no doubt that he could have kicked my butt in a second and taken my wallet, which would imply that he also could have flipped a burger...OMG! I didn't suggest such a cruel fate for that poor man, did I?!? If I were truly sympathetic I would head to the SE side of Atlanta for my weekly affirmative action beating, but I need to stay healthy so I can keep supporting these folk.

And you're right, George Bush hasn't supported that system - shame on him.

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Posted By: Bob

like corporate executives and Dub's Enron buddies, THEN tell me your woes. Until then, the rich will always screw the poor, the middle class will get screwed both ways and as Clarence Darrow once said, "there is no justice, inside or outside the courtroom."
Any one have any nice E94s for sale?

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Posted By: petecld

Scott,

The best thing your friend can do for those currently sitting under the overpass is show them they don't HAVE to be there.

Return some of her money? Please, what a joke.

Giving someone a fish is an act of pity and does nothing but make you feel good about yourself. Take the time to teach someone to fish for themselves - THAT is an act of true charity.

Sorry that it can't be the "easier" act to perform.

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Posted By: Julie Vognar

It's true I'm a bleeding heart liberal, but the reason I jumped all over Scott Brockleman, and starting throwing "democrast" and "republican" around wasn't that he's a right-winger, but because he didn't answer an e-mail I sent him (months ago), on a subject I mistakenly thought he would be interested in.

If that ain't just like a woman...

Affinity for people really doesn't have much to do with social or political beliefs. Leon e-mails me all the time, and v.v, even though we're at opposite ends of ther political spectrum.

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Posted By: runscott

but I still find it the preferable place to be. I don't agree that the rich always screw the poor, but I understand that is a fundamental idea of liberalism and I won't convince you or Julie otherwise;however, if I were to agree with you, then we would have to come up with a way that the rich could either be destroyed or made to stop screwing the poor (in which case we would simply have "un-screwed poor"). I prefer that we let them (the rich) live since you have to have producers as well as users, and some of the rich are at least producing, while none of the welfare cases are. And if you destroy the rich, the poor aren't going to disappear, they will just put their hands deeper into the pockets of the "non-poor" (the middle class in such a fantasy).

There have been several experiments in pure socialism (no rich people and no poor people). The result was very predictable - there was no real incentive for people to work harder than "average", but there was an incentive for people to work less and consume the fruits of everyone elses' labor. So, even without rich people, you still had a strata of society that prefers to be lazy and accept hand-outs.

There was also an experiment several years ago where McDonalds built shelters where the poor could stay and get cleaned up while looking for jobs (usually minimum wage). There was no interest. You see, it involved eventually going to work.

Oh, and the crooks at Enron should get life.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: runscott

I couldn't support a family doing that, but then again, I didn't begin creating a family until I could afford to. I was offered a chance to "move up the ranks" to assistant manager once I had honed my burger skills. This meant removing the fries promptly when they began to float, dusting off any raw patties that hit the floor, and always filling the cups to the top with ice. It didn't take a lot of brains, and we hired anyone.

And, no, I don't consider ketchup a vegetable.

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no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: scott brockelman

JULIE, i am sorry i did not respond to the email you refer to. in fact i do not recall it. i do know we have spoke on the phone a few times over the years. for not responding i apologize, if i did not, it usually means i do not have what a person is looking for. i do not do this for a living, i am a collector disposing of duplicates. for my conservative/liberal disagreement posts i do not apologize. while in no way were these post meant to belittle people or their place in the ecosystem of life i feel it important to air the disparities of the govt. system.

i have NEVER worked for McDonalds, but i HAVE lived the lower class life, at one point i lived off of less than $20 a week, i had no job, BY CHOICE, but i managed. granted i lost more than 20lbs in 3 months.

upon returning to the mainstream, i immeadiately rose to the top of a fortune 500 company by working 60-70 hours a week and i had talent, which many, many people have, but don't use. i persevered even though i did not like the "SYSTEM". my reference to McDonalds was not meant to mean that every one should run to their next hiring seminar, but that i see people collecting aluminum cans that i know take them 1-2 weeks to compile and they net $45-65 . wouldn't a regular job be better, that pays $7.50-8.50 per hour and in a 40 hour week net $250 after taxes, these people simply do not want to be in the system.

to make a point close to home, how would you like to have your impeding inheritance cut by 50% by the govt. what did they do to earn it? nothing! just an easy mark.

i think that most people, including you, have worked their tale off for most of their life and have let the high taxes and othes entitlement programs reap the profit, they wonder why they are not financially set.

ask your congressperson why social security is not applicable for them, or the teachers or railroad workers, you see there are already a diverse set of rules for "different" folks. i just want to bring this to light, i am not inferring to anyone that i am a "better" person. just tired of the status quo.

BOTTOM LINE IS I AM NOT AS MEAN SPIRITED AS YOU MAY THINK, NO REPUBLICAN IS, THE OTHER SIDE JUST WANTS YOU TO BELIEVE THAT. I JUST WANT EVERYONE TO BE RESPONSIBLE FOR THEMSELVES, DESPITE THE SITUATION. AS ARE THE VAST MAJORITY OF CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICAN/LIBERTARIAN FOLKS IN THE UNITED STATES, THEY WISH NO ILL WILL ON ANYONE, IN FACT THEY WOULD DO MORE TO HELP ANYONE IN HARDTIMES THAN ANY LIBERAL WHO WANTS TO CONTROL THEM.

I STONGLY BELIEVE IN THE CONTENT OF THIS POST, BUT DO NOT WISH TO TAKE UP ANY MORE BOARD POST SPACE WITH IT. ANYONE IS FREE TO EMAIL ME DIRECTLY WITH FOLLOW UP'S OR COMMENTS.

please do not think i am "yelling" by my full cap post's, it just my way of stressing key points.

scottbrockelman@msn.com

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Posted By: TBob

doesn't make you a liberal.
One more point and then I'll let it go, not all the starving, homeless, sick and wretched people in this world elected voluntarily to be that way, no matter what you think. There are bums who are poor and shiftless, lazy, no-accounts who wouldn't take a job if it were offered to them on a silver platter. There are also hundreds of thousands of hungry homeless children in the United States. There are elderly people trying to eke out a living eating dog food and living in horrible tenements. There are a LOT of poor, sick and dispossesed people out there and it is way too frigging easy to just say, "hey get a job, bum."
I am reminded why it was that after meeting the so-called "pillars of society," Jesus chose to spend so much of his time with the poor.

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Posted By: Scott M

I find this number hard to believe. I do agree that there are people that are unable to care for themselves. This is the reason that charities exist, and I believe that Americans contribute more to charity (both in $'s and %) than any other nationality in the world.

I might note that there would be less hungry people if the government hadn't made a concerted effort to stop many religious organizations from feeding the hungry - the reason? They didn't have the needed permits/health inspections. Much better to hire bureaucrats that don't care nearly as much.

I'm not a right winger, rather a common senser. It makes sense that those that make the most should pay more taxes than those that earn less. But it makes no sense to tell a person that they work Monday, Tuesday, and part of Wednesday for others and the rest of the week for their family.

The one tax I actually don't have a problem with is the estate tax, though it should be on some type of sliding scale. But lets face it - the really rich don't pay much in taxes on matter what the tax. The answer is to get rid of all the deductions except the mortgage on one house and the health (greater than 7.5%). Change the capital gains to 10% for everything owned for more than three years. Lower the upper rates for income and then thats it. Oh yeah, we'd need to fire about 80% of the IRS, that would be too bad.

This is a lot better than reading stuff about grading card services.

Regards

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Posted By: rmacpa

i seem to recall the cavalier attitudes applied by the french ruling class to the so called underclass during the late 1700's. the "let them eat cake" edict by marie antoinette and louis xvi was but the final straw which led to a revolution which ultimately toppled the monarchy as well as the heads of those deemed responsible.

it's one thing to be poor and quite another to be poor with the perception that no one cares if you live or die especially those currently in power.

what do you think would happen if our government were to ignore the plight of our poor and needy. if you think we live in a dangerous society today, imagine what it could be like if our poor were to adopt a similar peception.

i fully understand scott brockelman's position in that i too am tired of paying multiple levels of tax without much perceived benefit. i commend leon for attempting to motivate those less fortunate.

but the sad truth is that there is a component of the population that, for whatever reason, refuses to fend for themselves. it is truly taxing, both financially and at time intellectually, to have to participate in the support of this component. however, failure to do so may come at an even greater cost.

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Posted By: David Vargha

what do you think would happen if our government were to ignore the plight of our poor and needy

Then the church and the private sector could step in and do it more efficiently. It was only when the church began to back off of it's God-given role to support the widow and the orphan, that the government toe-hold was allowed to become a stronghold. However, no able-bodied person should be supported who is unwilling to work in any capacity; even if it means dispensing food or washing dishes for the charity that he benefits from.

The French Revolution was a total and utter failure as was the Bolshevik Revolution, for any body of people that seeks to overthrow those in power yet fails to uphold a higher moral standard is doomed to the same fare as its predecessor.

DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

can someone explain this thread to me using vintage card references because im totally lost.too many words without pictures and no keywords to keep my interested (i.e. t206,old judge,psa,corcoran,baseball,etc altho etc isnt one of the keywords)
I did read the post about flipping burgers and altho i dont work at mcdonalds i do manage a family owned resturant,not my family, and i had to cook a couple burgers the other day and i really didnt see what was wrong with that. I have alot of free time so maybe i'll work at mcdonalds one day a week and see whats so bad,mmm burgers
Just a note to anyone thinking of responding to this,im bored and i also felt left out of this thread....but i will add some interesting info just so this wasnt a total waste,ned hanlon if he were alive would be 145 today(aug 22nd) carl yaz is 63 today too! also born on august 22nd,happy felsch and howie camnitz and future hof'er paul molitor
Also baseball-reference lets you now sponsor players to help keep their site going,any guesses on who i sponsored?

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Posted By: rmacpa

change for the sake of change does not assure a favorable outcome. the fact that the french revolution failed to cure the prevailing problems did not result in the reincarnation of the society that had existed prior to its inception. the masses were willing to try anything, even anarchy, to change their lot in life. any change seemed to imply hope as opposed to the hopelessness that had existed previously.

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Posted By: TBob

of homeless children just in the U.S. That number, according to our own government's figures, is actually, dare I say it, conservative. Even George W. has acknowledged this fact...
Sorry John, I'll now get back to talking cards although I'd love to talk about the French revolution as history was one of my majors in college

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

was hundreds of thousands of homeless children your guess on who i sponsored for baseball-reference? its wrong if it was,think more on the line of retired baseball players who i might collect cards of...... i wasnt saying dont talk about other stuff per se,i just meant i read every post on here and i get lost pretty easy when it doesnt have a direct comment towards cards.think of it this way,my brain is a cup and all the info is like water,once its full any more info i add pushes other info(water) out of the cup.if im gonna put my water in my cup it better be baseball water,thats why i bought a BRITA water filter(Baseball Related Information Thats Acceptable)if someone can think of a better acronym for brita,keep it to yourself ,youll make me look bad and i dont need help doing that.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Hundreds of thousands of homeless children is not a fact. Puuuuuuuuhlease! "Even" if George Bush did "acknowledge" it, it still doesn't validate this Mitch Snyder-like stab at inflated numbers.

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Posted By: TBob

There ARE hundreds of thousands of homeless children in the U.S. The Coalition for the Homeless reports that the average age of a homeless individual is now nine (9) of age because of all the children. It is not just inner city kids either, there is an alarming rate of homeless children in rural areas throughout our country.
I bet you agree with those who think the Holcaust never happened either, that is all Semetic invention. Or if it did happen, we are talking maybe 5-10 thousand tops.
Puhleeze yourself....

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Posted By: Marc S.

That the United States of America has the richest poor people in the world.

Also -- when, if ever, was the last time you have heard of an mentally competent adult in this country starving to death? How many countries in the world can say the answer is zero or something very close to zero.

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Posted By: David Vargha

Not as clueless as someone who tells a Jew who lost relatives in the Holocaust "I bet you agree with those who think the Holcaust never happened either, that is all Semetic invention. Or if it did happen, we are talking maybe 5-10 thousand tops."

If you want to cut and paste from the website of every homeless advocacy group that sucks at the government teet (i.e. -- the more "homeless" there are, the more money we can get) then so be it. I just don't find such arguments compelling in the least.

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Posted By: runscott

As you must know, I was referring to people who CHOOSE not to work. So, please BOB, don't make me get out my miniature violin.

One thing I have noticed about Liberals - they love to make Conservatives out to be people who have no feelings about anything other than wealth. Sorry Bob, it just ain't so, but to admit that, your arguements would would have no merit, which they really don't anyway.

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Posted By: runscott

That is why Julie's correct that this argument will never be resolved. You can't drop the lazy people without dropping some of the legitimate welfare cases as well. What you actually need is welfare reform, but there are too many lard-*sses who will vote against it as it will remove their free no-work meal-ticket. And the politicians in the Democratic party do not want to lose those fully-able, non-working voters. Sorry, but it really is just that simple.

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Posted By: runscott

Revolutions do not succeed because they create perfection, they succeed because they give the mass of the people something better than they had before.

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Posted By: runscott

If their numbers were smaller, would they still exist? There are too many Liberal organizations that exist purely as a means to collect data to alarm people and rustle up more votes for Democratic politicians. The last thing these organizations want is for their data to be "positive" - that would mean that they would no longer have a reason for existence and their members would have to get real jobs. Let's see, what kind of job do you get with a Liberal Arts degree? ...flipping burgers.



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Posted By: Chuck Montoya

I have been reading now, this thread since it started.I must say that everyone here has valid points.I personally know firsthand, both sides of this coin. I grew up in a terribly dysfunctional family and was homeless quite often during my childhood.I started working in the oil industry at 15 yrs old.Always being big for my age, it wasn't hard to convince an industry that needed workers desperately and really didn't care anyway, of my age.I was tired of never having necessities and had a younger brother that I was responsible for. At 18, I got hurt and over the next 3 years had 2 back surgeries. I didn't try to suck the insurance company dry and believed that the company I worked for would take care of me as they assured me they would.I agreed to a very modest settlement thinking that I would just go back to work and get on with my life.Not wanting any handouts, only to return to my job and resume my life. Well as soon as I accepted the settlement I was "laid off" and blackballed from the industry because of my back.ie; they were scared of reinjury and possible lawsuits. I found a new direction and did as well as I could,by this time a wife and baby were a responsibility. A son with asthma and us without insurance ate what money I did have saved very quickly.I made it ten years before my back failed again and again I believed that all would be well as I had paid into the system and now I could count on help to get fixed up and return to work.The S.S. Administration fought me on every level,and won. I was left in the cold. Through the help of a personal friend I had 100,000 dollars worth of back surgery that helped keep me walking but certainly didn't and couldn't get me in good enough shape to return to work. All through this I have used my down time to volunteer in what ever capacity I can to numerous organizations as I can't stand being idle. As my condition has worsened much of my time is spent in a reclining position or lying down due to pain.Now.... it wasn't my fault that I grew up the way I did. That's just the way it was. It wasn't my fault that I got injured. I must admit at 18 , I was naive to believe that I could count on my employer to do what they said thet would. It isn't my fault that my son has asthma and I never thought twice about spending every dime I had to make sure his needs were met. I didn't do anything out of the ordinary to reinjure myself and was quite fortunate to get 10 yrs of work after my first 2 surgeries. I started paying into the system first at 13 with a part time job, I paid throughout my working days and never asked for anything.When it became necessary to ask, I was turned down several times and again on appeal. Am I a bloodsucker? Are my chidren deserving of better through a system that was supposedly was designed to help people like me? There are an awful lot of good people in this country who have similar or worse stories than mine.There are a lot of people in this country who work for minimum wage and make only a few dollars too much to qualify for help.If these folks take on another job then somewhere along the line, somebody will say that they were never there as a parent and so they obviously failed.Who cares how many kids are homeless in this country? The numbers aren't important. The fact that we have homeless children in this country is a crying shame.The fact that many of these kids won't be taught how to live differently is even worse. I applaud those who came from nothing and succeeded!! But just because it happened for you does not mean that it is possible for everyone. Hey, it would have been nice to have been taught a better way of life as a child, I have done the best I can with what I have and am trying to learn as I go. You can't just categorize all unemployed or homeless people together as deadbeats and slackers. There are so many mentally ill people on the streets that are not capable of holding down a job, is it their fault? Because of mental illness, many of these people self medicate with alcohol. It is so very easy for some to say that these people don't want real help.You know what? most of them don't have a clue as to what their needs really are! What about all of those who paid so faithfully into Enron retirement plans? Will they be labled deadbeats when they need help? Yeah it's probably their fault that they got ripped off! How dare them now go to the system that they have paid into for years and ask for help!So easy it is for some to stand in judgement.It doesn't matter what political party you belong to, as they have bled into whatever gets the vote so we now have "Repulicrats and Democricans" with both feeding off of the poor. It's a crying ass shame that somewhere , some multimillion dollar farming corporation will get subsidies compliments of our Government and I couldn't get my medical needs taken care of to try to be self sufficient. Or some somebody will get a 75,000 dollar grant to study the mating habits of the dung beetle when more children are added to the homeless list every day. I'm so happy for those of you that are doing well and admire your ability to do so. But lets not let the fact that you made it (By Gods Grace)dictate how you view everybody else. Some are not going to succeed no matter how hard they try. Sometimes bad things happen to good people.Until I got hurt, I had an opinion of all of "Those People" and now I am one of them.I could go on for eternity but I think that it's time to stop and pray now, not for me and my circumstances but for those of you who don't seem to have much of a heart, for in that way My riches far outweigh that which you possess!
Peace,
Chuck

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Posted By: runscott

I thought we were discussing people who have the ability to work, but would prefer to leach off of others. That doesn't appear to be what you are describing.

Again, the discussion always turns to Conservatives having no feelings for truly unfortunate people who need help. Sorry, but I'll repeat it - it's just not so. --------------------------------------------
no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions