Question on pressing

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Posted By: jverri01 

Recently, I have started looking more closely at cards to determine whether they have (ever) been pressed. It seems like, after a long hiatus, pressing has started to become "popular" again, all of a sudden. Recently, I have seen some really bad examples - so obvious it makes my bladder hurt. Anyway, it is also often difficult to determine if a card is pressed - as so many unaltered cards sometimes appear to be pressed. Even under magnification it's tough to be sure. Anyone have any tried and true methods of detection for those examples that could "go either way"? Recently, I paid good money for a very clean card that I thought was in no way altered. Naturally, though, PSA sent it back, and, yup, after I looked REAL close - was likely pressed. I just don't get it though. Usually, the cards I see that have been likely ptressed are just stupid cards to have pressed. They aren't hundred thousand dollar cards that someone wanted to get a few hundred thou more for - they've all been "asthetically-challenged" so to speak. You know - $5.00 specials. Here's what I think is a good example of a lower-end card that was likely pressed at some point, and has "incurred" additional creasing/wrinkling after the fact. Thoughts on this? I would really like to hear some techniques of detection from those of you with more experience than me. I have really only started to be somewhat good at this for a few years.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1836676772

Thanks...
James

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Posted By: jverri01

Same seller - another likely example. Must have been from the same "source"...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1836680597

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Posted By: scott

thanks

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Posted By: petecld

Good question.

What do you see that sets these apart from others.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

You would have to see the cards in person to tell.

I have been experimenting with card pressing lately. Here is what I have learned:

The purpose of pressing is to mechanically remove a crease, hopefully undetectably.

The best way to press a card is to soak it in distilled water until the fibres relax, then carefully place it between two sheets of typing paper and gently press out the excess water. When the card is damp but not sodden, place it between two new pieces of paper and put it under a big stack of heavy books (I used about ten coffee-table-sized volumes). Change the paper for new paper few minutes (gradually expanding the time) for the first few hours, then leave it overnight in new paper. In the morning, change the paper again. Keep changing the paper until the card no longer has any water in it--you can easily tell with typing paper because if there is any water it will ripple the paper surface. I then let the card air dry on a secure flat surface (in southern CA, it air dries fast--I live in a desert). If it works well, the crease is gone.

Note that the card will curl in the water because a typical card is finished in different paper on the front than the back, and the two types of paper absorb water at different rates. One of the most easily made mistakes is to try to force the card to uncurl with too much force, which can crease the card in the direction of the curl. You avoid this by making sure that the card is wet enough and by being gentle with it.

The best candidates for pressing are cards that have back creases that do not affect the front. These usually press out perfectly.

FYI, I have never had a card rejected by a grading service after pressing. The grades I have received range from ex-mt to vg-ex.

Detecting pressing (in my experience) really depends on the nature of the defect and of the card. The telltale sign most likely to be found is on the card front if the crease involved chipped the ink--you will see a white line that looks at best like a print line but will be all squiggly (it follows the contours of the paper fibres) rather than clean like a print line.

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Posted By: scott

- to remove scrapbook residue. I hadn't checked to see if minor creases were disappearing as well, but I will run a test and see.

If the grading companies can't see a problem with it, is it objectionable to do this - what do you think?

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Posted By: Mike Williams

should a pressed (now crease/wrinkle free) card be disclosed to a potential buyer as such? Is there any reason to press a crease/wrinkle out for purposes other than monetary gain? I'm assuming the crease/wrinkle was acceptable at the time of purchase....so if my assumptions are correct (maybe not!) isn't this really just a money issue? Too quiet here today folks....hit me where it hurts!

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Posted By: John Wojak

I would agree that 99% of all pressing is done to increase resale value of cards. But I could also see a collector who has no intention of selling a card trying to press out a crease just to enhance the card's appearance to his own eyes, and to the eyes of those to whom he like to show off his goodies. I've never tried it myself - too chicken to actually intentionally subject any of my cards to a soaking or physical force. The only "alteration" I have ever performed is the removal of some scrapbook paper with water, a fingernail and a penknife. Works great on those old water-based pastes used in vintage days.

Here's a good theoretical question, though - which is worth more in collectors' and dealers' eyes (and those two camps may not necessarily agree) - a vintage card with an obvious crease that does not break the paper surface, or the same card identical in all respects except that the card shows no obvious crease but shows evidence of having had a crease and being pressed? Does just the suspicion/knowledge that it has been pressed, and thus "altered" in some way, debase its value more than the crease itself, or does its value now fall somewhere in between that of an uncreased card and that of a creased card?

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Posted By: David

This is a different area, as restoriation involves an expensive prefessional -- but with movie and similar expensive posters, if a poster is restored from GdVg condition to Mint condition, it is not worth the unrestored Mint price, but is worth more than GdVg. Obviously, this is in part due to an understanding of the skill and time it takes to restore, which does not apply to you or me ironing out a 1987 Topps Mark McGwire in the kitchen.

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Posted By: jay behrens

probably falls under the same area as trimmed cards. Techincally they are fair to poor at best, yet get prices that are probably higher than if the card had never been trimmed to begin with. It seems the many collectors prefer an altered card that looks pretty than have an unaltered card that does not look as nice.

Jay

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Posted By: David

I've never looking into 'pressing', but I would be curious to find out how inroning might change the gloss or other qualities of a card.

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Posted By: MW

Jay --

I agree. 6 or 7 months ago we sold a 1956 and 1957 Hank Aaron on eBay. Both cards bore signs of alteration and we noted this in the description. In each case, the alteration had been performed to enhance the card's appearance. The final selling price was approximately 150% of the NM value. Without the alteration, I would guess that each card would have graded EM. We also sold a 1914 CJ Honus Wagner that had been professionally graded but was trimmed. Again, we noted this in the description. Curiously, the winning bidder didn't seem to care.

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Posted By: petecld

I'm with David, I would like to see what the surface of the card looks like after this process is done. I would have great reservations about doing this to a card. I would think the card stock would feel different after being soaked and then dried. It's hard to believe the card would keep any gloss on the front surface and would still lie completely flat but I guess anything is possible.

As MW noted about the selling prices of altered cards - the same holds true for Comics. Restored books still have value but most collectors will pay more for a un-restored book in lesser condition.

I don't have a problem with trimmed cards. I have a problem with sellers who don't tell buyers that they have been trimmed. Lots of trimmed cards on the tables at SportsFest (my opinion).

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Posted By: Dr.Koos

....back in the Medieval times, all the way through the Renaissance! So it must work to some extent on cards just the same!!! Personally, I'm all for pressing. Bench pressing, seated behind the neck presses, skull-crusher/lying tricep presses, etc. I would imagine that these exercises would build excellent arm strength applicable to pressing out the most beligerent and daunting of creases! The results are paradoxical however. The more force generated in pressing out a crease, the thinner, ergo the more visible, the layers of paper are pressed together. Pressing should be used gingerly, only on the most subtle of creases IF it is to be an 'undetectable' operation. As the Message Board Resident World Record holder in the "I've got more money thrown right out the friggin' (Friggin' used by permission of T-Bob) on Pro-Graded Vintage Restored cards Derby, I believe that Pressing, like any other alteration that changes the actual structure of the paper, SHOULD be divulged. Also, in all candor, the seller whose cards in question generated this thread has a total feedback of 9500 positive feedbacks and only 3 negatives!!! THE best record I've EVER seen on Ebay!!! How astronomically unlikely is it that he's wasting his time pressing $15.00 cards into $30.00 cards?

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I have always had a mixed view on removal of hairline creases. If the crease does not affect the ink and is removed using proper conservation techniques, I really don't see it as a problem. After all, the crease itself was something "added" to the card after manufacture (if the crease is a pre-manufacturing flaw in the paper, removing it will create a white line); all I am doing is removing the addition to the original state. I will give you an example from the art world: Michelangelo's Sistine Chapel ceiling was degrimed of 500 years of soot. That was removal. No one bitched about it. If museums accept removals from the great works of culture without reservation, why don't we? Now, contrast this with restoration, which involves rebuilding or replacing something that was deleted from the original product over time. It CANNOT be done without leaving a mark that was not part of the original, even if it is done most skillfully. To me, that makes it something unacceptable unless divulged. Returning to the example, if I took a brush to the Sistine Chapel and expertly re-blacked some lines, it would be an act of great controversy, and rightly so.

As far as the line between "expert" and not, it does not matter whether the person involved is an "expert" or "professional". The real issue is what is being done and how well it is being done. I've read the same books as the "experts" and have experimented on the cards until I got the technique down. Does that make me any less "expert" at removals than someone with a store or a degree?

As far as gloss, etc. goes, the cards are unaffected by removals performed WITH PROPER TECHNIQUE. Nothing in a card is vulnerable to DISTILLED H2O and proper handling. Cards are wood--they were "born" moist. Paper is made by pulverizing, pressing, drying and chemically (sometimes) altering raw wood or other plant fibers (I know, I've made it by hand, in my wild days when I was planning on being a starving artist). Water stains occur because of impurities (primarily minerals) in the water, which adhere to the wood and color it, and because of incomplete wetting and poor drying techniques. Spill a Starbucks on a card and it will be ruined instantly because of the chemicals in the liquid. Rainwater stains the hell out of cards because it is not pure, especially when it filters through building materials before dripping on your collection.

The second aspect of working with wet wood is handling. Wood warps when wet unless it is properly tended. If properly tended, it can be made to go where it needs to. How do you think curved shapes are made in furniture? Pine trees don't grow in oval strips. Cabinet makers work wood into curves by moistening it (with water and/or chemicals) and gradually bending it with great skill into the desired shapes, which are maintained mechanically until the wood dries into place. Wetting down a card and flattening it gradually is no different, if you do it right.

The other components of cards are ink and (in many sets) varnish or coatings. The inks on nearly all cards are petroleum or oil based, as are the varnishes. They are not affected by water.

Cards are very vulnerable to surface damage when wet. Think of how much easier it is to scratch a living tree's wood than an aged piece of oak. That's why I use clean white paper and extreme care in handling wet cards. Again, if you are going to do this, be VERY careful.

As far as reasons go, I've only done a handful cards that I've wanted for myself, and nothing so far worth more than a hundred bucks (too chicken). It just ticks me off to have a card that is really nice but for a hairline crease, especially when (c'mon, admit it, you've done it too) I made the crease.

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Posted By: scott

If it has paste on the old back, be sure to rub it all off (very gently) before putting the card between paper, or you will get "paper pulls" from the glue and you will cry.

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Posted By: jverri01

Thanks, folks! GREAT feedback! This is VERY interesting as a line of discussion.

First - to respond to some of the initial questions:

1. How can I tell? Well - that is just the thing. I am still developing this skill. At this point, I am really only able to detect those that are either very obvious or somewhat obvious. I have picked up on a few "subtle" examples. For the most part, those that are easy to detect: have been done by "unskilled" persons. Typically, simply by pressing them WITHOUT water. I spoke with a guy about a year ago that had a hoard of about 100 cards that were all EX or better, but each was held back by a light wrinkle. He "resolved" this issue by using two solid blocks of metal (both flat), which he lined with typing paper, and then put a card in the center, and placed the blocks together. He pressed them by using a vice grip and applying a moderate amount of pressure for a very short period. The result was moderately successful overall - but, some were obvious, and here is my conjecture on why: because the paper on the front and back of the card are different, the "distribution" of fibers within the card are displaced unevenly. So, even if the two blocks used to press with are PERFECTLY flat - you still end up with a surface that, under magnification, reveals more than you would expect. I am guessing that when you use WATER to soak the card first (and others can speak better to this) it disperses the fibers more evenly, by weighting them prior to pressing.

2. Purpose of pressing? I completely agree with you guys: most of the time pressing is done to increase the "expected return" on the sale of a card. Like, a gorgeous matty card that has a wrinkle, for example. Sell it "as is" and it brings $400.00. Somehow remove the wrinkle and grade it - maybe double your return.

3. Ethics of pressing? This IS a very difficult issue. I suppose it is somewhat subjective. MY THOUGHTS are that if a person HAS pressed a card (and, essentially, the objective of pressing is to "improve" a card appearance, right?) that they absolutely SHOULD disclose this when selling a card. Essentially, the act of prssing can be a very simple - or extreme - measure. I guess that "MOTIVE" plays largely in to the ethics of the whole thing. If a person presses with the intent to deceive - shame on them. If they press with the intent to increase value - AND disclose this - they are serving no injustice on the buyer. If a seller DOES disclose pressing has occurred, and a buyer acquires a card WITH this knowledge - and the card is submitted for grading and RETURNED because of suspicion of being altered - I do not think the seller should be accountable. SO LONG AS THEY ARE UP FRONT ABOUT HAVING PRESSED THE CARD.

4. General thoughts on pressing? I am sort of torn on this issue. On one hand - I feel that pressing a card somehow "disturbs" it from its natural state of being - and, in that sense - the card is altered. However - if I have a truly high-end collection of ungraded cards - and i have just acquired an absolute gem that has a NEAR INVISIBLE wrinkle - I can see myself considering an attempt to press the wrinkle out. I would likely only do this if only a very SMALL portion of the card had to be pressed (less than 25%). As for being a seller and pressing cards to make more money - I am sorry to say (and, please - disagree if you like - just my thoughts) I do not feel this is ethical. EVEN if you disclose this to the buyer. Why? Because, I feel it somehow creates a wave effect in the hobby. Just because THAT buyer knows it is pressed - who is to speak for future owners of the card? Will THEY know? It just seems like it presents the potential to perpetuate an "acceptable form" of "altered state". I would rather not see that happen. Personally - I have never pressed a card I have sold. And, those that I have pressed to "test" were anything BUT successes.

5. Value? The question of value of a card that is pressed vs. a card that is wrinkled - ASSUMING that we are speaking of the SAME CARD - merely in two different states of being - is an EXCELLENT one. I am really glad this was brought up. Most of us are TORMENTED by wrinkling and creasing. For the most part, our entire objective - our obsession - is to obtain the highest end merchandise we can find. The fewer the flaws the better. So, when we are looking at TYPES of flaws, and weighing which are MORE acceptable than others - how do we assess this? Again, I think it is subjective. And - I think the decision is best made on a case by case basis. I am uncomfortable just making a blanket statement like "I prefer creased cards over pressed cards" or vice versa. I think that in some cases - a wrinkled card will just SEEM more "natural" than one that you know to be pressed - and vice versa. So, I guess I personally believe in the revolving door philosophy on this - reserving the right to determine the best "resting state" of a card, based on the data I have at the time.

One final note - the biggest reason I felt those cards were pressed - the top border showed a moderate amount of folding - a "side-effect" I have seen a few times when a card is pressed dry - and is done so by simply putting a block over it and applying weight. The fold - at a single border - was the result of the weight applied to the card shifting while it was pressed. Essentially - a very finite edge ended up _unpressed.

THANKS AGAIN!! GREAT commentary's!

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Posted By: Jim Freeman

Frankly, I find this thread rather distasteful. "Pressing" is simply one of the more benign forms of card alteration. I am a little distressed that so many people seem adept at it. Just my $0.02.

-JF

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Posted By: Elliot

Jim,

All of us on this thread know each other. What is your eBay "handle"? If some of us would like to reach you off the forum, how do we do so?

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Posted By: scott

to make their own cards look better. We have discussed "soaking" numerous times on the board, as a way to remove cards from scrapbook pages with minimal damage (thanks to everyone for their input). "Pressing" has to be done after soaking to remove paper/glue or you wasted your time removing the paper/glue. Example - Billjo won a huge auction of t206 scrapbook pages recently - we exchanged some emails as both of us have experience in removing cards from scrapbook pages (he has been doing it much,much longer than me). In Billjo's case, it was definitely a skill he posssesses that allows a lot of other people to enjoy these t206's in a much nicer form (if you saw the auction images you'll know what I mean) and I can attest to the fact that it is not something that you will get down perfect the first time you try it. And yes, he gets some compensation for that skill, which I see nothing wrong with.

I also remove other foreign matter from my cards whenever it is possible to enhance the visual appeal without actually altering the card. If you attempt to "flick" off tobacco residue from a t206, you will find that no matter how gently you do it, a small bit of the top layer of the card will come off as well. Soaking, on the other hand, does the job perfectly. Caramel residue can usually be removed easily without soaking, but you have to be very careful. Constant checking with a 10x to see if you are doing damage is a must.

I have not been able to tell the difference between the "before" and "after" cards in terms of surface luster, so I have no problem with soaking. I have also soaked a few test cards to remove dirt and stains, and have had very little luck. As said before, I had no idea that this process would also remove wrinkles, but I certainly will watch for that the next time I do it.

The soaking/pressing method really works well for 1800's trade cards - the glue and excess paper comes right off with very minimal soaking. In fact, I would just wet down a cloth with warm (distilled) water and gently rub off the glue/paper without even soaking.

I press the old thick tradecards BENEATH a stack of books, on a flat surface. But with t205s and t206s, I put them in a book in a bookcase vertically and cram books to either side, for maximum compression. This is because they have to be soaked longer and have more of a tendency to bow if you don't press them hard and long enough.

If you don't get all the glue off, the results will be terrible - especially with t205s as the back layer of paper seems to rub off more easily than with t206s.

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Posted By: B C Daniels

he forgot the stocking rolling over the tobacco stains and dried Cocoa Puffs Koos spills on them......There are several other methods of "pressing" and expanding Koos will let you all know later in 24 Hour Fitness terms! Steroids help card corners come back as well....especially when distilled in wine vinegar..

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Posted By: Brian H.

While it was unintentional to say the least weren't the collectors (myself sometimes included) who put cards in those unrecessed screwdown holders -- especially the impressive thick ones -- inadvertently engaged in pressing too?

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Posted By: TBob

Done all kind of damage to holders over the years but never pressed a card to remove a wrinkle or crease. I have an E90-1 Young Bos. in NRMT with a chunk of caramel stuck to the front and I am totally paranoid about trying to remove it with soaking because I can see it now "NRMT with slight paper loss on front," one of those descriptions that Brian D loves so much

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Posted By: jeff

Since all y'all are doing, or may someday do a lot of pressing, I just wanted to let everyone know that, when they screw up with a very valuable card, and end up with a water-damaged Gypsy Queen Anson (just to pull an example out at random <g>), sell it to me!

That said, press away!

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Posted By: B C Daniels

I pressed them both pal!!!!

I even sprayed one of them with "sizeing" !

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Posted By: TBob

Luckily the only E94 Speaker I won was purchased on ebay from the other coast.

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Posted By: jverri01

Elliot,

My Ebay handle (until last Friday) was jverri01. My new Ebay handle is www_masstercards_com

I have Ebay positive feedback totalling almost 1000 unique. I have read and posted here somewhat extensively for several months.

I have worked with many - if not most - of the folks participating to/on this board. I am happy for you to speak with any one of them - runscott, Mr. Brockelman, TBob, BcD, etc., etc.

If you want to chat, or need to contact me, email me offline and I will gladly send my phone number. I can be emailed directly at: james.verrill@tufts.edu

Regards...
James

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Posted By: john(z28jd)

he was reffering to jim freeman who posts without an email link and is not known to anyone here(that most of us know of anyway) not you

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Posted By: Scott

but if you keep a low profile he might forget what I said.

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Posted By: Runscott

...

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Posted By: Dan Mathewson

...if you do press a card, how much starch do you use? Medium...extra heavy? <grin>